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Only new features, please!

Give us an update to fix existing incomplete features while we wait for the new stuff

A mixture of some new features and fixed existing features

[Luge]

Hi there.

First, well done on making such a great game. It's a really amazing accomplishment and we really enjoy reading about all the new stuff you're working on with cities and night creatures.

But...

I get the feeling that a whole lot of us would really appriciate the fixing of the many existing features of Dwarf Fortress that don't work properly right now. Sorry if that sounds boring, but many of us sit playing the game with such feelings of longing and hope that one day all the cool things that you've already invented will work, that reading about the new things you're working on can feel disappointing.

Principally I'm talking about things like:

 - Nobles coming along at the right times and being able to get monarchs.
 - Dungeonmasters arriving at all
 - At least a -small- fortress economy so that (for example) dwarfs don't end up naked when all their clothes decay
 - Rivers eventually running out of fish
 - Not being able to feed elephants and keep them alive
 - Dwarfs not being able to carry more than one item (/weapon) at a time
 - Whatever happened to wagons?

I'm sure some of these things are on hold while you work on the Grand Plan, and I realise they're not as exciting as getting new features to work, but I think many of us would appriciate it, perhaps as an intermediate release.

Love and peace,

Luge.

[Neonivek]

Whatever happened to wagons?

Good riddance. I know it will return but I will enjoy every second of "Wagon can't make its way to your fortress" crud.

Also Luge, some of those things you want "fixed" are more specifically on hold because they are part of more overarching changes.

For example the Monarch. It is waiting for a time the Monarch makes a difference (such as the army arc when actual armies are involved)

They are actually on their way it is just going to take a LONG time.

[peskyninja]

Have you ever heard of the Dev log?

 

- Nobles coming along at the right times and being able to get monarchs.
 - Dungeonmasters arriving at all
 - At least a -small- fortress economy so that (for example) dwarfs don't end up naked when all their clothes decay
 - Rivers eventually running out of fish
 - Not being able to feed elephants and keep them alive
 - Dwarfs not being able to carry more than one item (/weapon) at a time
 - Whatever happened to wagons?

Everything listed here is on the ESP or in the Dev log.

[Footkerchief]

Have you ever heard of the Dev log?

 

- Nobles coming along at the right times and being able to get monarchs.
 - Dungeonmasters arriving at all
 - At least a -small- fortress economy so that (for example) dwarfs don't end up naked when all their clothes decay
 - Rivers eventually running out of fish
 - Not being able to feed elephants and keep them alive
 - Dwarfs not being able to carry more than one item (/weapon) at a time
 - Whatever happened to wagons?

Everything listed here is on the ESP or in the Dev log.

AFAIK, no they aren't.  They're in the bug tracker, but some of them are indeed languishing.  The noble/DM bugs in particular have been around since April 2010.

[Catastrophic lolcats]

Have to say I'm a little disappointed that the whole noble thing hasn't been fixed. Most of the bugs are either not important enough to care about or can be worked around.  Noble bug on the other hand is neither 

[antymattar]

Have you ever heard of the Dev log?

Have you ever heard of friendlyness you ...................................................?

[Nerfer2]

I wish toady will address some of the bugs before moving onto big projects.

[Chattox]

I'll tell you my own little workarounds and ways of dealing with these, at the moment. Don't take them all seriously

- Nobles coming along at the right times and being able to get monarchs.

Honestly, my fortresses rarely survive this long anyway. Also, I don't personally see the point, since I much prefer having my fortress do what I want instead of having to pander to a noble.

- Dungeonmasters arriving at all

You can edit the raws to get around this. I think you remove the [PET_EXOTIC] tag and it makes them tamable by anyone. Kind of a cheap workaround but it works. (correct me if I'm wrong on the tag, btw)

- At least a -small- fortress economy so that (for example) dwarfs don't end up naked when all their clothes decay

I always found clothes to be too much micromanaging. Plus, naked dwarfs make for excellent fear-factor in your enemies.

- Rivers eventually running out of fish

Do they? I'm pretty sure more fish appear every now and then... I know there used to be a bug where they all died at the start of the embark, however.

- Not being able to feed elephants and keep them alive

I think you can, you just need to give them huuuuuge pastures? Or you can edit the raws again to make them need less to eat, which is probably what toady would do to fix it anyway.

- Dwarfs not being able to carry more than one item (/weapon) at a time

Wait, you mean you don't like seeing a stairwell vomit out 100 dwarves when you designate a lot of stuff to be dumped?

- Whatever happened to wagons?

As someone else has already said, good riddance. Now my entrances can be narrower with more security, and I don't have to muck about clearing trees and stuff to clear a path. Also, the pack animals bring about as much as a wagon did, anyway.

[peskyninja]

You can edit the raws to get around this. I think you remove the [PET_EXOTIC] tag and it makes them tamable by anyone. Kind of a cheap workaround but it works. (correct me if I'm wrong on the tag, btw)

And add the [PET] tag

[Dsarker]

While I'm happy to wait, I'd also kind of appreciate just occasionally keeping us posted, even if it's just mentioning when he's planning on fixing them.

[MrWiggles]

Hi there.

First, well done on making such a great game. It's a really amazing accomplishment and we really enjoy reading about all the new stuff you're working on with cities and night creatures.

But...

I get the feeling that a whole lot of us would really appriciate the fixing of the many existing features of Dwarf Fortress that don't work properly right now. Sorry if that sounds boring, but many of us sit playing the game with such feelings of longing and hope that one day all the cool things that you've already invented will work, that reading about the new things you're working on can feel disappointing.

Principally I'm talking about things like:

 - Nobles coming along at the right times and being able to get monarchs.
 - Dungeonmasters arriving at all
 - At least a -small- fortress economy so that (for example) dwarfs don't end up naked when all their clothes decay
 - Rivers eventually running out of fish
 - Not being able to feed elephants and keep them alive
 - Dwarfs not being able to carry more than one item (/weapon) at a time
 - Whatever happened to wagons?

I'm sure some of these things are on hold while you work on the Grand Plan, and I realise they're not as exciting as getting new features to work, but I think many of us would appriciate it, perhaps as an intermediate release.

Love and peace,

Luge.

I'm never a fan of these kinds of threads. We dont really understand, how things are interconnected with in dwarf fortress. We dont know what system, relies on what. We simply cant know what we're asking Toady to do.

For instance, it was a long standing issue, there was no milkable animals in the game. When we got milkable animals in the game, it was part of a huge rewrite that allowed for for more animals interactions then we had previous. Simply making animals milkable, would just have been a waste a time, as it would have been ripped out, in the lue of the grander, more expandable sub system to handle it.
There an example in this list.

- Dwarfs not being able to carry more than one item (/weapon) at a time

This seemingly small suggestion, is quite large undertaking.

Hauling Improvements

Being able to haul multiple small objects
Having multiple dwarves involved with item hauling for a job
Being able to move multiple objects with roughly the same destination at once
Wheelbarrows to haul more objects than can be carried
Minecarts
Wooden, stone-carved and metal tracks
Can be filled like stockpiles and moved between destinations
Work animals to tow carts and haul objects

I wish I could say, that hauling multiple objects at once, was somehow independent to these other abilities, but they might not be.

And let alone the fact, that changes in Fortress have mirror changes in Adventure Mode.

- At least a -small- fortress economy so that (for example) dwarfs don't end up naked when all their clothes decay

This one, isn't actually about the economy, unless he wants it to be automatous. I think this bitch, falls under these dev items:

Standing Production Orders

Production triggers for new work orders
Being able to link work orders and triggers to buildings

Workshop Material Use and Specific Object Construction

Ability to specify material used in jobs
Ability to order the construction of a specific item or decoration of item in complete detail

Unless, OP was speaking to the Economy in Dwarf Mode, then we're stuck. I dont see the merit, in throwing in /yet/ another place holder system, (Unless another more permeant system needs it), just so it can be ripped out.

But if it about the Dwarf Mode Econ, then this is what we're waiting on:

Site resources

Track resources in quantity instead of just by type
Should depend on trade/tribute relationships as well as available professions and sprawl sites

World economy

Supply/demand based on current available entity resources etc.
Expand on trade/tribute relationships formed in world generation
Realize trade/tribute relationships with actual caravans moving on the map
Ability to get some supply/demand information about nearby locations from travelers and others
Ability to get that information yourself and trade it to merchants, especially as explorer
Replace dwarf mode generated caravans with actual caravans
Improved dwarf mode trade agreements

Markets

Small markets associated to entity population villages
Markets need to replenish goods and manage ownership changes

Release 2 (The current release goal)
Villagers/farmers schedules/activities.

Release 4
Fairs
Merchants moving around from place to place.

Release 5
Changing populations, food use and other world gen stuff moved to actual play

Release 6
Dwarf mode trading improvements incorporating all the world gen/supply/demand/merchant info etc.

- Nobles coming along at the right times and being able to get monarchs.

You do participate on this forum yes? No one really likes nobles. I'm not sure why you're listing this. Though the DM is almost legit, but it can be worked around.
However, the nobles, not coming dont really impact anything you(the general player) do in Dwarf Fortress. Some do find it fun to deal with them.

I have a sneaking feeling that this will remain flakey, until we get to having Guilds again. I suspect, their triggers will work off of a similar system, and until Toady & Threetoe gets down to looking at guilds, it might be patching an incomplete system, that'll have to ripped out, to restore minium game function.

- Whatever happened to wagons?

Wagons. Meh. I havent really missed them.
Or, OP is asking for what happened to wagons.
Then, with some more searching I found this! A post by ToadyOne! (Though to be honest, I knew it existed, as I keep up with FotF.)
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=60554.msg1776138#msg1776138
If you dont want to read, the rather long post:
Here ya go:

With the new more important caravans, will we be able to keep our doors closed most of the year, and get a grace period for opening up when the caravans arrive on the edge of the map? This would allow more security whilst minimising lost trade opportunities.

If this is in reference to wagons (vaguely remember that from the thread), then it might be moot, since I'm not sure we'll have wagons/carts until we get around to the big vehicle rewrites now, or maybe even the road stuff as well.  This doesn't mean that there can't be large important caravans.  It'll be different all around.

- Rivers eventually running out of fish

Also, I think rivers do run out of fish. You can overhunt, and I'm pretty sure you can overfish. With some minor searching, I came across this thread. Which seem to conclude that, yes, you can overfish.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=48888.0

[kirottu82]

- Nobles coming along at the right times and being able to get monarchs.

You do participate on this forum yes? No one really likes nobles. I'm not sure why you're listing this. Though the DM is almost legit, but it can be worked around.

Kind of sick of this being used as an excuse - yes, nobody really likes nobles, but nobody really likes accidentally breaching that one last layer of adamantine and unleashing death upon a carefully-designed fortress either, or accidentally drowning all your dwarves by forgetting to flip a floodgate lever.

Nobles might be annoying, but they are crucial to the (as much as the word is applicable to a fantasy-setting game including alcoholic mining dwarves, etc.) REALISM of the whole game, and in the case of the DM (and a couple others) are crucial to several important aspects of the whole system. I would think that fixing up them arriving at all, even if not necessarily at the correct times, would be a (relatively) simple fix.


My main complaint with recent development is that it seems to be focused too much on Adventure mode, when it is Fortress mode which really makes this game stand out; I understand that much of the mechanics between the two are intertwined, but not all of it, especially relating to much of the current development.

But don't get me wrong, my complaints pale in comparison to my massive appreciation for this brilliant game which has obliterated far too much of my free time over the past couple of years and will continue to do so for hopefully many years to come. I'm just really hoping for a solid, stable and playable release - akin to 40d - incorporating the features up to and including 31.25, before the current massive arcs are continued to be worked upon.

[MrWiggles]

- Nobles coming along at the right times and being able to get monarchs.

You do participate on this forum yes? No one really likes nobles. I'm not sure why you're listing this. Though the DM is almost legit, but it can be worked around.

Kind of sick of this being used as an excuse - yes, nobody really likes nobles, but nobody really likes accidentally breaching that one last layer of adamantine and unleashing death upon a carefully-designed fortress either, or accidentally drowning all your dwarves by forgetting to flip a floodgate lever.

Nobles might be annoying, but they are crucial to the (as much as the word is applicable to a fantasy-setting game including alcoholic mining dwarves, etc.) REALISM of the whole game, and in the case of the DM (and a couple others) are crucial to several important aspects of the whole system. I would think that fixing up them arriving at all, even if not necessarily at the correct times, would be a (relatively) simple fix.

The DM does allow you one nifty ability, but its easily worked around. The other noble positions, nah, they dont add anything to the game really. Its why they get killed off. There is very little difference in having nobles, and not having nobles right now.

Its not that the playerbase is against nobles. Its that, we're against useless nobles. Before cheese and soap were possible in the game, they too were faced with a similar fate to nobles.

There been a smatter of talk, of what the nobles can do. Some of it, is unlocking new features like the  DM.  Though I think nobles will function better, when they can do more stuff. Right now, they cant interact with your fort really, the realism counter point falters, because they dont do anything. (UNless you meant it is realistic for Nobles not to do anything.)

My main complaint with recent development is that it seems to be focused too much on Adventure mode, when it is Fortress mode which really makes this game stand out; I understand that much of the mechanics between the two are intertwined, but not all of it, especially relating to much of the current development.

Adventure Mode wasnt getting love for years. It was quite the dead part with Dwarf Fortress. Last year is the first year in a bit where it got some love. This release, is heavy adventure, true, but its not Fortress mode goodieless. Mummies, Necromancers are all gonna have fun with your fort.

But don't get me wrong, my complaints pale in comparison to my massive appreciation for this brilliant game which has obliterated far too much of my free time over the past couple of years and will continue to do so for hopefully many years to come. I'm just really hoping for a solid, stable and playable release - akin to 40d - incorporating the features up to and including 31.25, before the current massive arcs are continued to be worked upon.

40d, has this weird association to it, like its some sorta silver age for dwarf fortress (golden being 2d).

40d, was stable because it happen to end at a large number of bug fixes, before its Valley of Death dev cycle. I can't play 40d anymore. I rely and enjoy on to many of the features that are in 31.X game.

I like having bees. I like having milk. I especially like having a health care system. I like the forgotten beasts, I like the expanded underground features. I like the posions, and all that jazz. They're sorely missed in 40d, and I could go on with what 40d doesnt have with what we have now.

After this release comes out (which, I'm thinking December, January, sadly), we'll get steady stream of bug fixes, before Toady moves onto Release 3. Hopefully, maybe, Toady will try for the 2-4 weeks dev cycle again, like it was suppose to be.

As Toady admited, he got side tracked. But I find it hard to be mad at his side tractedness. Because he got side tracted, we're now getting mummies, crypts, curses, necromancers, raising undead as an adventure, books with secrets (and maybe books with biographies), adventure becoming Necromancers. Vampires, I think to. Oh, and secrets that you can discover and learn in adventure mode.

[ravaught]

From some of the general bitchiness coming from the replies to this thread, it seems like the main thrust of the OP was completely overlooked in trying to knit pick the details. Yes, it would be nice to have a round, or several, of bug fixes and general housekeeping. A feature that doesn't work is not a feature, its a bug. A work around is not a feature, its an exploit. (Quantum stockpiling, water reactors, ect) One the the main points about exploits is that if people are using them, you need to find out WHY they are using them and fix the root issue as well as removing the exploit in particular. So, while I may not agree with all of the items the OP listed particularly, I do agree that a series of releases related to bug fixes and other items would be good.

Particularly things that directly impact the game play/performance. Personally, I would love to get a release that doesn't send me into FPS death. To me, that is the one item that should probably be #1 on the dev list as it doesn't matter what features of the game you use, you are still affected by the FPS problem. A lot of the cool possibilities with the game are also curtailed because of this. (Imagine making a fort that took up the whole embark tile instead of a 4x4 or 6x6 chunk of it...) Most of the time on the suggestion thread we talk about new features that we would like to see implemented, interface complaints and such, mainly because we all believe that Toady is aware of all the routine normal problems and doesn't need to be reminded. I don't necessarily think it is fair to bash the OP because he did what we normally take for granted as a given.

[Luge]

Thanks to those that you who've replied so far.

The poster immediately above me (ravaught) summarises the thrust of my post very well. I'll admit that the very short list of examples that I gave was weak in places (functionally, the game is fine without wagon, for instance), my point was that there are many features that are currently non-functional that previously worked fine. Ravaught makes an excellent point that workarounds and exploits are used because there's a problem, rather than because there's an opportunity.

MrWiggles, yes, I'm a forum reader and user. I'll admit that nobles aren't always popular and people have posted extensive research both here and on the wiki on how to get rid of them. But they're still part of the game and the "fun".

I'm aware that there's a deeper Grand Plan behind Dwarf Fortress, and I understand that I can't appriciate the fullness of where certain parts of the game are going. But I've also worked with programmers who can put a good enough skin on almost any solution so it can appear to the user that the problem has gone away when its really being fixed in a very different way. This is just the natural way problems get solved sometimes.

L.