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[Girlinhat]

Fill in the blank, and you've got one of the most annoying phrases I've ever heard.  Now, in particular, I mean "I can't do something around here because of the area I live in."  I see this most often with my transsexual friends (I'm active in GLBT stuff, 'k?) who will say "I wish I could dress as a girl, but I can't do that around here."  I see it sometimes in BDSM communities (I have varied interests, why can't I?) with phrases like "I want to wear a collar, but I can't do that here."  I see it plenty of other places, but primarily in the "fringe" or "abdnormal-yet-mostly-normal" where something is perfectly legal and safe, but unusual, and socially "weird".

The thing that gets me most, that a lot of people don't understand - or outright deny, is that we live in an age where you are not socially responsible to anyone you don't want to be.  At least that's true of USA and any other civilized country, can't speak for African tribe communities.  Which is the crux of the argument.  In the old world of society, it ultimately came down to witch hunts.  If you were an abnormal, or socially awkward, or something that put you apart from others, there could and usually would be direct physical action.  If you enjoyed watching and studying the moon, then someone might think you're strange, and if they're aggressive enough and smart enough, then they could say that you're trying to use witchcraft to change the sky, and you'd get burned at the stake or exiled or something.  Just as an example, of course, I can't really relate to any -real- incidents but you get the idea.  Historically, if you were strange and someone didn't like that, then they could actually do something about it.

Today, not so much.  You can study the moon and talk to and claim that it talks back and invited you for tea.  If someone things you're strange, then bullocks to them, you can keep talking with your moon!  It would take something as serious as treason or terrorism to get any legal action performed.  And (as I most often hear) crossdressing/being transsexual is neither treasonous nor terror-inducing.  Well, some people might be terrified, but that's not the intent at least.  If you're crossdressing and claiming to be a celebrity, that might get you in trouble, but now you're in a whole other field of debate.

The thing that so many people don't seem to grasp is... you are not accountable to anyone in today's world, at least not socially.  You're financially accountable to your bank and taxes, and you're legally accountable to the police and the judge, but you're socially accountable to no one, unless you desire it.  If you hold yourself accountable to your church, then that's your choice and is not forced.  If you leave your church, nothing bad will happen.  Well, bad things may happen, like if you're currently employed by the church, but again that's another issue entirely.  The issue is, that Mr. Random Joe on the street doesn't matter.  If you want to wear a slave collar and the fast food employee gives you a funny look, nothing is going to happen.  The average citizen that so many "non-normals" seem terrified of actually have no sway over your life, unless you allow them.

I just had a talk/argument with a transsexual friend of mine, pre-hormones, who said something along the lines of "I was thinking about going into town tomorrow, dressed, but this really isn't a good state to try that in..."  My response basically came down to 1: she does pass as female and the point as moot, and 2: even if she didn't pass, then it wouldn't matter.  She's going out in daylight in secure places (ie, not the bad part of town) and if anyone gives her a strange look, that would be the extent of their reaction.  I just get so frustrated when people hold themselves back because they're afraid that people who don't matter in the least will care about their choice of happiness.

Discuss.

[kaijyuu]

You know the saying "sticks and stones will break my bones, but words will never hurt me?" It's full of shit.

Were I in your friend's situation, I'd be equally terrified of being mocked. It's not something most people can shrug off.

[Girlinhat]

I can agree there, but she HAS a sturdy support base.  There's a few people local to her and plenty online, and while I know my version of tough love isn't always the best, I like to think I'm pretty good.  Plus she's passed plenty before and been complimented lots.  It may be more of a self esteem issue there, feeling "I don't look good even though I get complimented and guys checking out my ass" but even aside from this specific person, others end up restraining themselves out of some vague social pressure.

[Vattic]

I relate to what you are saying but many feel a social obligation to their family and it's standing or even their own standing. I know, through family mostly, a physically male psychologically female person* who is now post-op but was greatly concerned with the impact it might have on her son. She weighed the options and decided to go public but I don't think it was wrong for her to consider the impact it might have on the people around her.

I've also known a few comic book fans who hide this when around certain people. They were worried at how these people would respond and how it would change their standing. There are certain opinions I hold that I don't bring up at work for fear of being ostracised. Out of work I'm more vocal but I don't get to choose my colleges and would rather avoid direct conflict. Some would likely see me a coward for this and I honestly feel one at times but how can I argue with my bosses? It's not in my interest as selfish as that is.

I suppose what I'm saying is that often it's in peoples interest to keep things private. I'd imagine small towns / villages / closely knit places are even worse for someone different if they want an easy life.

*not sure of the accepted terms even though I've read them here

[Girlinhat]

True, I can understand some modesty on parts.  I don't exactly go around bragging about DF, because people have either heard the horror stories, or I'll tell them the horror stories when they ask, but I'm not going to shy away if anyone brings it up.  Which is more to topic, I suppose, that people are afraid to publicly express certain things no matter what the company is.  It's not just "I'm at work, I shouldn't be wearing a slave collar" but "I'm in an empty mall in the middle of a schoolday and I'm afraid to wear a heavy necklace".

[Vattic]

Most of the examples you gave are fairly public even if any bystanders would be strangers. I don't know many people where I live to the point that I haven't once bumped into anyone I know in town. My appearance is controversial and gets me dirty looks, general hostility, and foul comments. All of this is because my hair is long and I've currently got a full beard and moustache. This threat of trouble makes me unconformable in town even if nothing bad is happening. I'd imagine this feeling and threat is very active in the minds of many people. It's likely supported by the stories they hear from their peers.

I'm not trying to trivialise with my examples of hair and comic books. People seem to have a strong instinctual drive to fit in and not stand out. I've even known people who don't like standing out in ways positively perceived. This drive can often run counter to their own opinions, their groups opinions, and even those of society as a whole. I'd likely shave and get a hair cut if I hadn't grown up somewhere where it was more accepted and I wasn't too suborn to change.

I can completely relate to people who hide themselves like you mention. I can also completely understand your frustration. It's a problem that seems to make itself worse. People hide because of fear and the lack of exposure generates more fear in other similar people. A symptom of this is how much respect people get from peers when being completely public about their controversial interest(Right word?)(Homosexuals and transgendered people who come out of the closet and people vocal on certain issues come to mind).

Now you've got me thinking about it I'm more annoyed about that statement than before.

[RedKing]

I'm private about a lot of my personal details in daily life.
I keep my religion to myself, not so much out of fear of persecution as to avoid having to answer the same questions over and over again.
I keep my orientation utterly to myself.
I even keep my politics to myself at work, because I work with enough rabid right-wingers that I just don't find it worth it. I deal with enough headaches on a daily basis that I don't need to bring myself additional headaches.

Part of this is probably being a severe introvert, part of it is being Southern (we're brought up to learn the value of a polite smile and saying nothing), and part of it is based on religious ideals that say it's better to bend like a reed and survive than be the proud tree that gets uprooted in the storm.

[KaelGotDwarves]

While I'm totally okay with wandering by myself and couchsurfing in the houses of complete strangers, I understand that not everyone can just drop everything, trust in themselves, and move to a place that suits them and their lifestyle.

[Bohandas]

With regard to transsexuals; I have no probelm with people who want to consider and/or conduct themselves as members of the opposite sex.

It bothers me, however, when some of these people start wanting me to consider them to be a member of the opposite sex than they actually are. I see that as being no different than trying to force their religious beliefs on me (even if they've had the surgery; the surgery is entirely cosmetic) (Still, even under this metaphor, GirlInHat's point is valid, as I imagine that most of us ignore people handing out religious literature too, ESPECIALLY if they're pushy about it)

[scriver]

...How is that relevant to the topic at all.

[Doomchild-]

'witch hunts' arent a thing of the past, a nail that sticks out will eventually get hammered. which is unfortunate.
even if your immediate surroundings have accepted you as you are, going out in public while openly showing/telling your differences can be difficult. even though the people who see you are complete strangers and you might never see them again, the idea that you made a certain impression and the possibility that they have a negative reaction or opinion can make it a stressfull experience. there is also the fear of being shunned or looked down upon. people dont have to do a lot to undermine someones selfesteem. even if we claim that we dont care about what others might think, it can still affect us when we're confronted with negative responses.

it's true that we're not socially responsible for others unless we want to be, but that doesnt stop us from holding back because of it. and even though the witch hunts arent as frequent and obvious as they used to be, if someone takes offense at your differences and they wish to act upon it, then they can and usually will make your life difficult, if not impossible.

personally i think things have even gotten worse over the years. where as previously it was mostly those who did not answer to the general requirements of society that were affected, now society itself has become so diversified and unpredictable that it's impossible to fit in everywhere and all these groups often live close or even within a larger community, making very likely that even within an area where certain things are accepted, someone will be offended by something you do/wear/say/...

imho, it takes some serious balls (pardon my choice of words) to go out and be yourself when you are very different than the majority of society, even if it's generally accepted.

it's really sad that we sometimes have to be less than what we are, just out of fear that someone might not aprove. i applaud your support to your friend and wish everyone was as openmined.

@bohandas: your arguement is flawed... people who undergo a sex-change dont do so because they want to look like the other sex, they do it because the want to be the other sex. the surgery may be just cosmetic, the other changes happend long before that or were there from the start. and even if they dont go all the way with it, it makes little difference. they simply wish for you to consider them as a member of the sex they consider themselves to be. it's nothing like someone forcing their religious beliefs on you, it's actually the other way around, they converted and now want you to not force your beliefs on them.

[Heron TSG]

@bohandas: your arguement is flawed... people who undergo a sex-change dont do so because they want to look like the other sex, they do it because the want to be the other sex. the surgery may be just cosmetic, the other changes happend long before that or were there from the start. and even if they dont go all the way with it, it makes little difference. they simply wish for you to consider them as a member of the sex they consider themselves to be. it's nothing like someone forcing their religious beliefs on you, it's actually the other way around, they converted and now want you to not force your beliefs on them.

My words, they are no longer in my mouth.

Around where I live, if you indicate that you are LGBT, you will be attacked. I know of only one gay guy at my high school, but apparently things are pretty rough for him.

[Pnx]

My high school was a nice place. The teachers were very supportive, but even so I heard students who went around saying they were gay got taunted for it. I only knew two students that were gay (and one that went around proclaiming he was gay and trying to make guys uncomfortable by incredibly lewd, but I don't think he actually believed himself gay, he was just a dick), out of those two, one asked us not to talk about it, the other got taunted and made fun of. I think he eventually just learnt to shrug it off.
Even a nice high school is filled with childish immature people, you just learn to ignore them.

[Doomchild-]

Even a nice high school is filled with childish immature people, you just learn to ignore them.

Sometimes it only takes one. One childish idiot to rile the masses. And most of the people join in on the ridiculing/bullying either out of fear of being on the receiving end or simply because of pack-mentality.
and while you can learn to ignore them and their words/actions may no longer cause you harm, i mean time they can make life uncomfortable or worse.
it's best to not be quick to judge others nor dismiss the effects of their behavior.

[Bohandas]

@bohandas: your arguement is flawed... people who undergo a sex-change dont do so because they want to look like the other sex, they do it because the want to be the other sex. the surgery may be just cosmetic, the other changes happend long before that or were there from the start. and even if they dont go all the way with it, it makes little difference. they simply wish for you to consider them as a member of the sex they consider themselves to be. it's nothing like someone forcing their religious beliefs on you, it's actually the other way around, they converted and now want you to not force your beliefs on them.

I understand that the intent is not to change looks, but the fact of the matter is that that is all it changes. Biologically they are still their original real sex, not the sex that they want to be. To accept that they truly are their desired sex is to believe that a change has taken place where physical evidence suggests that it has not; in this manner it is excatly like the Catholic religious doctorine of the transubstantiation of the eucharist. Again, there is nothing wrong with believing that you are actually a member of the opposite sex, just as there is nothing inherently wrong with believing in the eucharist, but attempting to force that belief on society as a whole is wrong.