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[Vector]

If you can't tell the difference, what the fuck do you care?  You want these people to be dressed up as a chick and wearing a sign that says "Oh, I'm "actually" a man!" so they can be identified, or what?


GirlinHat, I don't think that's true.  For example:

(I'm active in GLBT stuff, 'k?)

(I have varied interests, why can't I?)

The real question--if there's no threat whatsoever you might withstand, why is it necessary to make these qualifying remarks here?

You "can't go out in public" without them, right?  The worst you'll endure here is shunning and ostracization.  Out in the real world, you could get killed for it.  You might not be--but you could be.

And so, I suppose you've answered your own question.

[Comp112]

Even a nice high school is filled with childish immature people, you just learn to ignore them.

Sometimes it only takes one. One childish idiot to rile the masses. And most of the people join in on the ridiculing/bullying either out of fear of being on the receiving end or simply because of pack-mentality.
and while you can learn to ignore them and their words/actions may no longer cause you harm, i mean time they can make life uncomfortable or worse.
it's best to not be quick to judge others nor dismiss the effects of their behavior.

I do not feel like I am adding much here, but standing up for yourself does wonders. I personally have been made fun of my entire life for various things. Once high school started up, I started sticking up for myself. Needless to say, things changed.

That won't always work, but it helps. And when it does work, it is a huge self confidence boost.

[RedKing]

@bohandas: your arguement is flawed... people who undergo a sex-change dont do so because they want to look like the other sex, they do it because the want to be the other sex. the surgery may be just cosmetic, the other changes happend long before that or were there from the start. and even if they dont go all the way with it, it makes little difference. they simply wish for you to consider them as a member of the sex they consider themselves to be. it's nothing like someone forcing their religious beliefs on you, it's actually the other way around, they converted and now want you to not force your beliefs on them.

I understand that the intent is not to change looks, but the fact of the matter is that that is all it changes. Biologically they are still their original real sex, not the sex that they want to be. To accept that they truly are their desired sex is to believe that a change has taken place where physical evidence suggests that it has not; in this manner it is excatly like the Catholic religious doctorine of the transubstantiation of the eucharist. Again, there is nothing wrong with believing that you are actually a member of the opposite sex, just as there is nothing inherently wrong with believing in the eucharist, but attempting to force that belief on society as a whole is wrong.

Well...except that for someone who believes in transubstantiation, physical evidence is secondary to the "truth" of what has occurred. Yes, it still looks like unleavened bread and if you run it through a spectrographic analyzer, you're not going to find traces of blood or flesh or ectoplasm. Regardless, to them it really *is* the flesh of Jesus Christ.

Likewise, even if the 'equipment' (or on a more fundamental level, the chromosomes) doesn't agree with the standard gender label, if a transgender person feels that their "true" self is the opposite gender, then that's who they are.

I get what you're saying, but you're inherently arguing a sort of hard atheist/realist worldview, where physicality trumps everything else. A lot of people don't operate that way -- and that doesn't make them irrational or deluded.

[Vector]

Read some Heidegger, Bohandas.

[Bauglir]

Why does it matter what hardware they've got? I should also add that, since I'm given to understand there's a biological component in terms of brain development, it seems just as reasonable to argue that they're biologically the sex they believe themselves to be, but some other body parts got mucked up along the way. It's certainly silly to argue that chromosomes are the ultimate definition of sex - after all, if that were the case, this wouldn't even be an issue.

[Bohandas]

If you can't tell the difference, what the fuck do you care?  You want these people to be dressed up as a chick and wearing a sign that says "Oh, I'm "actually" a man!" so they can be identified, or what?

No, to continue my metaphor all I'm saying is that it is acceptable for the same reason that it is acceptable to go out in clerical vestments; out of respect for the beliefs of others, rather than on the assumption that those beliefs are necessarily true.

[Vector]

You know the blind men and the elephant story?

Each blind man learned a different, contradictory truth of the elephant.  That does not mean that any of them was wrong, even when they had disparate knowledge.  That's how things are when living in the world.

[DJ]

Being shunned by everyone isn't exactly nothing. Not only do you lose out on socialization, but also on many opportunities that come from it (job opportunities for example).

So yeah, I don't think it's something exclusive to the GLBT community, *everyone* is very conscious about what impression they leave on people around them. For example, you won't wear sweatpants when going out to a bar, even though they are a LOT more comfortable than jeans.

[Bohandas]

Why does it matter what hardware they've got? I should also add that, since I'm given to understand there's a biological component in terms of brain development, it seems just as reasonable to argue that they're biologically the sex they believe themselves to be, but some other body parts got mucked up along the way. It's certainly silly to argue that chromosomes are the ultimate definition of sex - after all, if that were the case, this wouldn't even be an issue.

I don't see chromosomes as the ultimate arbiter. I see gonads and gametes as the ultimate arbiter. Biologically, sex is defined by the size and type of gametes produced. A creature that produces small motile gametes is male, a creature that produces large, mostly stationary gametes is female, (even if, as in birds, the males have matching sex chromosomes and the females unmatching sex chromosomes) Creatures that produce both are hermaphoraditic. Creatures with castes that produce different types of gametes but whose gametes are not divided along these lines have differently named and defined sexes, such as the "+" and "-" mating strains of some fungi. This is also independent of genitalia, males of many species (such as most birds, fish, and amphibians) have no penises, and female spotted hyenas effectively do. It is with some reluctance that I even allow people who have had testicular or ovarian cancer to be grandfathered in; though I suppose that if I can make this exception, I can make another.

[kaijyuu]

I don't put much stock in the importance of gender in the first place (well outside of reproduction anyway), but I'll consider someone the gender they consider themselves. I don't care what equipment's between their legs, or the chemicals flowing through their body, or their chromosome pairs. Those are all meaningless to me (again, outside reproduction...).

[Bauglir]

I don't see any reason go give gonads preference. What gender do you assign to a eunuch? I mean, the physical qualities are important for some situations, such as clothing design and so on, but when it comes to social interaction and so forth I'd wager that it's fairly irrelevant unless you intend to make use of the body in question - in which case, sure, it's fine to want somebody you plan to sleep with to tell you about all this stuff. After all, I'd expect somebody emotionally close to you to be able to confide in you with that level of trust.

[Bohandas]

I don't see any reason go give gonads preference.

I suppose it's because of my background in biological science. Scientifically this is how the sexes are defined. In the Bluegill Sunfish, some males look and act like females, for all we know they may even think they are, but they are nonetheless considered male.

[Bohandas]

I don't put much stock in the importance of gender in the first place (well outside of reproduction anyway), but I'll consider someone the gender they consider themselves. I don't care what equipment's between their legs, or the chemicals flowing through their body, or their chromosome pairs. Those are all meaningless to me (again, outside reproduction...).

I see it this way too, but my reasoning is that if something is only incorrect in one area, but that area is the only area in which the thing counts, then overall it is incorrect.

[Bauglir]

I don't see any reason go give gonads preference.

I suppose it's my background in biological science. Scientifically this is how the sexes are defined. In the bluegill sunfish, some males look and act like females, for all we know they may even think they are, but they are nonetheless considered male.

And for reproductive purposes, that's correct and I agree, but social stuff (and self-perception, for that matter) is all behavioral. You're talking to a fellow biologist, friendo.

[Bohandas]

I must state, however, they ever develop a reliable way to transplant gonads, I will concede to the realism of the change in that case. In fact if, for instance, a woman had her ovaries replaced with testicles I would have to concede that he was a man even if he changed nothing else in anatomy or behavior and even had the testes put in the position that the ovaries once occupied.