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Author Topic: Are Hammerlords some kind of sick joke?  (Read 28783 times)

Necro910

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Re: Are Hammerlords some kind of sick joke?
« Reply #120 on: October 12, 2011, 12:06:19 pm »

I read in some fantasy novel or another--I think the Sky Sword series--about people lunging forward when shooting bows as a means of making it strike harder. It sounded bogus when I read it, but is there any truth to the matter? This would have been just after the collapse of the Roman empire, somewhere in the early middle ages.

That does sound pretty bogus, since a guy lunging forward wouldn't add any appreciable force to an arrow being fired, plus it would throw off his aim.
Unless you had extreme speed (Can't do so on foot) you aren't going to hit much harder. If you were on horseback, you'd have the horse's speed added onto the arrow's speed.

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MadocComadrin

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Re: Are Hammerlords some kind of sick joke?
« Reply #121 on: October 12, 2011, 12:22:02 pm »

or trollfaces in general; they're asinine.
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eggrock

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Re: Are Hammerlords some kind of sick joke?
« Reply #122 on: October 12, 2011, 12:23:07 pm »

Hmm, a bow will provide some recoil, whether lunging forward could offset the recoil a bit?

I think that was the general idea (the book was The Skytone, not Sky Sword). The author spent some time describing technique and accuracy.
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FrisianDude

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Re: Are Hammerlords some kind of sick joke?
« Reply #123 on: October 12, 2011, 12:44:53 pm »

But yer, running while firing a gun will technically make the bullet go that little bit faster and would technically give it more stopping power.
and it would technically make it impossible to hit your target. :P
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Necro910

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Re: Are Hammerlords some kind of sick joke?
« Reply #124 on: October 12, 2011, 12:46:00 pm »

But yer, running while firing a gun will technically make the bullet go that little bit faster and would technically give it more stopping power.
and it would technically make it impossible to hit your target. :P
Cars help with that problem. And shotguns.

FrisianDude

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Re: Are Hammerlords some kind of sick joke?
« Reply #125 on: October 12, 2011, 12:51:01 pm »

Running forward while repeatedly discharging a shotgun would likely end with you on your back.
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Necro910

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Re: Are Hammerlords some kind of sick joke?
« Reply #126 on: October 12, 2011, 12:55:30 pm »

Running forward while repeatedly discharging a shotgun would likely end with you on your back.

Cars help with that problem.

FrisianDude

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Re: Are Hammerlords some kind of sick joke?
« Reply #127 on: October 12, 2011, 12:56:06 pm »

'taint runnin' if it's inna car.
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khearn

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Re: Are Hammerlords some kind of sick joke?
« Reply #128 on: October 12, 2011, 05:14:59 pm »


After a few years of shooting a couple of hours on two days a week, I was very comfortable with my 70lb bow, and was one of the few in the guild that could shoot the 110lb bow one of the guys had (there were many stringer than I, but technique is better than strength). It takes a lot of shooting over time to build up the muscles used for a longbow.

If you'd break it down on a crash course, how many weeks do you think the becoming comfortable would take?
I didn't shoot with longbows but got quite the hang of modern sports bows quite quickly. Don't know about the power I pulled though.
I rather imagine skill came with their status (yeomanry?). I suppose they had to show up for some trooping during a year (as a form of feudal duty) where they most likely trained to act as a unit. And if they didn't fulfill their duties, there'd be consequences, I suppose. And so you'd look after your gear and practice shooting in case the lord would call you to arms.

Hard to say, I'm not very knowledgeable on how fast people gain strength. How many weeks would it take someone to be able bench press XXX pounds? Beats me.

One thing to consider is that shooting a heavy bow is somewhat akin to doing weights. You don't gain strength by spending 8 hours a day doing it. You could do a couple of hours a day, but much more than that would end up being counterproductive. You don't get stronger while you're exercising, you get stronger while you're recovering between workouts. So there are limits to how much a crash course would help.

Another thing to remember is that there is no let-off on a longbow, unlike most modern sports bows. The farther you pull it, the more resistance there is. A typical compound bow (the ones with training wheels) has 60-80% let-off. So if you're shooting a 70 pound bow, you only have to hold 14-25 pounds at full draw when you're aiming. It's a very big difference if you don't shoot instinctive. Anyone can hold 14 pounds as long as they need to. I've seem hunters at practice ranges draw the arrow and stand there aiming for 30 seconds (yeah, like a deer is going to stay in one place and let you do that). So there's a big difference in strength needed between modern bows and longbows. Shooting instinctive helps a lot, since I usually would release very shortly after reaching full draw. But learning to shoot that way with any kind of accuracy takes a lot longer than a few weeks.

In England, there were laws requiring all able-bodied men to practice in the longbow on a weekly basis. Edward IV passed laws forbidding an early form of cricket because people were playing it instead of doing their archery practice. Henry VIII imposed a law in 1515 requiring almost all of his subjects  to shoot longbows, have bows continually in their houses, and "that fathers and governours of chyldren teache them to shote, and that bowes and arrowes be bought for chyldren under XVII and above VII yere, by him that has such a chylde in his house". So it wasn't some yeoman class with special status, it was every man "excepte Spiritual men, Justices etc. and Barons of the Exchequer" (http://www.scortonarrow.com/features/Archery_its%20the%20law.htm) At least in England.
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Dwarf_Fever

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Re: Are Hammerlords some kind of sick joke?
« Reply #129 on: October 12, 2011, 09:26:48 pm »

1. Rapiers were poor against heavy armour. They rose to popularity as civilian self-defense and dueling weapons against mostly unarmored opponents. Consider that armour was obsoleted neither by rapiers, bows or even the dreaded but slow crossbow, but by a combination of firearms and massed infantry tactics, most notably pike formations vs cavalry and early guns vs anything less than quality plate.

2. Bows also were poor against heavy armor, even longbows. If you examine the oft-quoted battles where longbows were used heavily to good effect, knights were typically defeated by a number of factors, most prominently charging over bad cavalry terrain and having their lighter-armored horses shot at leisure from the flanks. Even so, the knights were often still described as being actually killed by men-at-arms in melee. Conclusion: The cavalry charge was defeated by longbows, terrain and stakes, the armour not so much. ("Idiot commanders" also comes to mind, but knights could be notably difficult to command reliably as it were.)

Battles that simply involved knights and infantry with longbows but without extensive terrain choice and preparation (muddy fields, stakes, ditches) on the part of the defenders tellingly resulted in massacre on the longbows end and virtually no losses by the knights. (See battle of Patay for instance, 1500 cavalry vs 5000 infantry mostly composed of longbowmen. Infantry losses 2500, cavalry losses 100.) You just don't hear about those battles quite so much in english-speaking culture for some reason. Hmm!

The longbow is a bit like Britain's katana: It can cut through tanks, shoot bullets out of the air, etc.

I just realised that I've been imagining maces wrong this whole time. They were merely a sphere on a stick until now.
Anyway, is it me or maces are pretty suckish? What avantage do they offer compared to hammers?

(Assuming you mean in reality, though DF does a pretty good job of this IIRC...) If the poor target is wearing no armor, a mace will crush about as well as a hammer, pound for pound. Either way you are in for some pain whether you are hit with a hammer or a mace.

On the opposite high end, if the target is wearing a non-flexible armor like plate, with padding underneath, a mace and hammer are still about equal, pound for pound. Either way the only thing they will feel is the total impact, which will be spread out and cushioned. Heavy impact may still cause enough shock to stun or daze a target. That's assuming you are striking the armor directly, not a joint.

However, if the target is wearing padding and armor that does flex, The hammer's impact will be cushioned more than the impact of a mace. This applies not only to armor like padding and maille, padded or unpadded leather armor, etc, but also to the joints of plate type armors - in fact, a flange may strike into the joints of plate armor where a flat hammer would not be able to at all.

In other words, if you have a flanged mace available, there is no reason to use a hammer. The hammer offers no advantages other than being simpler to produce. The mace is better in virtually any scenario involving armor.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 10:04:53 pm by Dwarf_Fever »
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Dwarf_Fever

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Re: Are Hammerlords some kind of sick joke?
« Reply #130 on: October 12, 2011, 09:27:47 pm »

Double post, woops.
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krenshala

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Re: Are Hammerlords some kind of sick joke?
« Reply #131 on: October 12, 2011, 10:55:35 pm »

One thing to consider is that shooting a heavy bow is somewhat akin to doing weights. You don't gain strength by spending 8 hours a day doing it. You could do a couple of hours a day, but much more than that would end up being counterproductive. You don't get stronger while you're exercising, you get stronger while you're recovering between workouts. So there are limits to how much a crash course would help.

Another thing to remember is that there is no let-off on a longbow, unlike most modern sports bows. The farther you pull it, the more resistance there is. A typical compound bow (the ones with training wheels) has 60-80% let-off. So if you're shooting a 70 pound bow, you only have to hold 14-25 pounds at full draw when you're aiming. It's a very big difference if you don't shoot instinctive. Anyone can hold 14 pounds as long as they need to. I've seem hunters at practice ranges draw the arrow and stand there aiming for 30 seconds (yeah, like a deer is going to stay in one place and let you do that). So there's a big difference in strength needed between modern bows and longbows. Shooting instinctive helps a lot, since I usually would release very shortly after reaching full draw. But learning to shoot that way with any kind of accuracy takes a lot longer than a few weeks.
I remember reading about the recovery of the Mary Rose, and the longbows that were recovered from it.  Per the wiki page for English longbows, most folks thought that those bows had a typical draw weight of somewhere between 80 and 110 lbs.  After the recovery of 130-some bows from the Mary Rose, it is estimated that (using a 30 inch draw to accommodate the arrows found there as well) they had a draw weight more like 150 to 160 lbs, and potential draw weights of 100 - 185 lbs (depending on draw length).

My understanding is the typical method of using a medieval longbow was to not hold it drawn, but to aim while drawing and loose the arrow as soon as you had reached full draw to reduce the chance of the bow breaking due to the forces involved.

I'm pretty sure 150 pounds of force confined to a quarter inch circle would punch through most armor plate.  Especially since bodkin points would have been used against plate armored knights.  A broadhead might not puncture the plate steel as well, but a bodkin is designed for armor penetration.

And, to reply to a post from way back at the beginning, the purpose of the flamberge was to have specially trained short guys (humorously enough, at or below my height of 5'4) that would close on pike squares and use the wavy "teeth" on their swords to cut the heads of the pikes and dramatically reduce their effectiveness against cavalry (or other pike squares).
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EveryZig

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Re: Are Hammerlords some kind of sick joke?
« Reply #132 on: October 12, 2011, 11:10:34 pm »

However, if the target is wearing padding and armor that does flex, The hammer's impact will be cushioned more than the impact of a mace. This applies not only to armor like padding and maille, padded or unpadded leather armor, etc, but also to the joints of plate type armors - in fact, a flange may strike into the joints of plate armor where a flat hammer would not be able to at all.

In other words, if you have a flanged mace available, there is no reason to use a hammer. The hammer offers no advantages other than being simpler to produce. The mace is better in virtually any scenario involving armor.
Is that using the blunt head of the hammer or the pointed one? (Assuming warhammer refers to these: http://www.kingego.com/shop/images/643.jpg ) I would speculate that the pointed end would get stuck but would focus the force quite a bit.
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Vester

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Re: Are Hammerlords some kind of sick joke?
« Reply #133 on: October 12, 2011, 11:15:51 pm »

One thing to consider is that shooting a heavy bow is somewhat akin to doing weights. You don't gain strength by spending 8 hours a day doing it. You could do a couple of hours a day, but much more than that would end up being counterproductive. You don't get stronger while you're exercising, you get stronger while you're recovering between workouts. So there are limits to how much a crash course would help.

Another thing to remember is that there is no let-off on a longbow, unlike most modern sports bows. The farther you pull it, the more resistance there is. A typical compound bow (the ones with training wheels) has 60-80% let-off. So if you're shooting a 70 pound bow, you only have to hold 14-25 pounds at full draw when you're aiming. It's a very big difference if you don't shoot instinctive. Anyone can hold 14 pounds as long as they need to. I've seem hunters at practice ranges draw the arrow and stand there aiming for 30 seconds (yeah, like a deer is going to stay in one place and let you do that). So there's a big difference in strength needed between modern bows and longbows. Shooting instinctive helps a lot, since I usually would release very shortly after reaching full draw. But learning to shoot that way with any kind of accuracy takes a lot longer than a few weeks.
I'm pretty sure 150 pounds of force confined to a quarter inch circle would punch through most armor plate.  Especially since bodkin points would have been used against plate armored knights.  A broadhead might not puncture the plate steel as well, but a bodkin is designed for armor penetration.

I posted a link to some research a guy did. Bodkins do penetrate much better than broadheads, but against plate only the needle bodkin does any good. But considering the guy was simulating the impact bows that had 110 pound draw weight using a 70 pound bow ten feet away (the 110 pound longbows he would have had the same force at much greater range) the results might well be different with real longbows.
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Dwarf_Fever

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Re: Are Hammerlords some kind of sick joke?
« Reply #134 on: October 12, 2011, 11:20:02 pm »

The bodkin tips which were found and tested have all been discovered to be made of unhardened metal.

If they were meant to penetrate metal, they would be hardened. They were at best meant to defeat chain maille, perhaps breaking a single link to penetrate, not somehow pierce through steel. You don't cut wood with butter.

Additionally (and not commonly known) a thick coat of padded jack alone will stop non-cutting arrowheads, while obviously plate armor alone will easily stop cutting arrowheads. Knights wore layers for a reason. Gambeson, plate, maille, and padding made them impervious to arrows to the extent they could afford coverage.

Lastly, consider this simple test, and notice how the test is completely biased for the archer: Point blank range, no surcoat, direct angle of impact and the armor is set up against a wall with no give. Despite all that, the test is thorough, accurate and much less biased than many other, more amateur tests. Note that the longbowman would have completely failed to so much as draw a drop of blood, and at that range it would be his last shot against charging cavalry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3997HZuWjk

Is that using the blunt head of the hammer or the pointed one? (Assuming warhammer refers to these: http://www.kingego.com/shop/images/643.jpg ) I would speculate that the pointed end would get stuck but would focus the force quite a bit.

No, you're right, but then a hammer is not the same as a warhammer. :)
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 11:35:17 pm by Dwarf_Fever »
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