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[Wannazzaki]

Theres a reason they are called railguns in DF!

[AWdeV]

The knight has spend years training. Medieval campaigns and combat aren't a pick-your-troops affair as shown in the total war games. You use what you have and maybe hire some mercenaries beyond that. If you take, say, France at the end of the middle ages then you have a vast pool of knights and armoured heavy cavalry. The english from the same period has a hell of a lot of longbows. Not because they decided "hey, you know what would be a good idea? longbows." but more because they simply had a large pool of peasants skilled in the use of the bow who got rounded up and sent to war.

[Vester]

Arrows weren't as effective against armor as you [Wannazzaki] seem to think. At Agincourt the French made it all the way to the English lines under a hail of arrows. What killed them was the combination of mud and their heavy armor and the fact that arrows bouncing off their armor was actually really quite painful and fatiguing (I guess it was like being punched?). Yes, the English archers beat the French knights at Agincourt. But they did it with hatchets, swords, spears, and knives, not with arrows.

Similarly steel plate would deflect crossbow bolts, and the closer you got the more likely you were to get wounded, but not

one shot to kill, and even less of a shot to wound, maim and cripple

. Considering that mail over a gambeson will protect you from arrows and bolts some of the time, steel plate would be even more protective.

The longbow and the crossbow didn't end the knight because it could defeat armor without a problem, it ended the knight because horses and plate armor were expensive, while longbows and crossbows were way cheaper.

[FrisianDude]

But if you can afford to field a hundred knights, I can afford to field a few thousand crossbowmen. I'd estimate that a heavy crossbow would cost about as much as a good sword. Then the knight needs a full suit of armor (several more crossbows) and a couple of war horses (a very large pile of crossbows).

Then the knight needs to spend years training. Learning to use that sword. Learning to use a lance. Learning to wear that armor and building the strength to do so.  Learning to ride a war horse at full gallop while using a lance in one hand and a shield in the other. Learning to fight with sword and shield while keeping an excited horse under some semblance of control. It's a full time job and requires a bunch of people just to support the knight, who has no time for useful labor.

A crossbowman can learn the basics in a couple weeks, and doesn't really need much more. A couple of days learning how to use the crank to load the thing. A few days of practice to get the bolt to go to the right area. Precision shooting isn't needed when a few thousand people fire at a few hundred.

You would be right but you are ignoring several important economic points;
1. A knight would have been in training anyway, whether you were going to need them or not.
2. A knight would not be 'afforded' as such; a knight would be there. If they do not wish to join the fight they'll have to buy the right to stay home so you an replace them with mercenaries.
3. A sword and armour industry would have been around for a while before the crossbow became important enough to effectively displace knighthood from battlefield prominence.
4. A knight would have access to his family's armoury in much shorter time than you'd need to attract professional crossbowmen. You can of course buy a bunch of crossbows instead (or have them made) and give those to peasants, but mercenary professionals will be much more useful than peasants.
5. A knight is in your service (or if you are the king it's more likely that they are in the service of those who are in the service of your direct vassals), a peasant is not particularly keen to take up arms, certainly less so than a knight. A mercenary crossbowman, a professional, is more likely to simply fight for the guys who pay more.

Other than that, yes, a few thousand crossbowmen will make a shambles of a few hundred knights, definitely. I don't think I ever said they wouldn't.


Again, my brother adds to my point before I make it.

[Wannazzaki]

Arrows weren't as effective against armor as you seem to think. At Agincourt the French made it all the way to the English lines under a hail of arrows. What killed them was the combination of mud and their heavy armor and the fact that arrows bouncing off their armor was actually really quite painful and fatiguing (I guess it was like being punched?). Yes, the English archers beat the French knights at Agincourt. But they did it with hatchets, swords, spears, and knives, not with arrows.

Similarly steel plate would deflect crossbow bolts, and the closer you got the more likely you were to get wounded, but not

one shot to kill, and even less of a shot to wound, maim and cripple

. Considering that mail over a gambeson will protect you from arrows and bolts some of the time, steel plate would be even more protective.

The longbow and the crossbow didn't end the knight because it could defeat armor without a problem, it ended the knight because horses and plate armor were expensive, while longbows and crossbows were way cheaper.

Crossbow bolts were high velocity spikes which would puncture platemail, by the nature of the weapon and the shape of the bolt the sheer force behind the weapon was much greater. Crossbows mechanical crank vs hand drawn. I think people underestimate quite how scary a crossbow is. The drawback of course is a rate of fire at around 2 per minute. Meaning missing more than once could be the difference between life and sword through face.

[MadocComadrin]

Not because they decided "hey, you know what would be a good idea? longbows." but more because they simply had a large pool of peasants skilled in the use of the bow who got rounded up and sent to war.

Although, you could say that had said quite some time earlier, "hey, you know what would be a good idea? longbows," which netted them that supply of peasants in the first place. (That, and strictly comparing France and England in the middle ages, the Economy and conscription laws favored England in numbers IIRC).

Also, the longbow (with bodkin arrows) and the crossbow (and some other bows) could penetrate plate. Crossbows did have an advantage in penetrative power, but longbows had the advantage in rate of fire (and arc). This applies (naturally) even more so to maille.

[Vester]

Arrows weren't as effective against armor as you seem to think. At Agincourt the French made it all the way to the English lines under a hail of arrows. What killed them was the combination of mud and their heavy armor and the fact that arrows bouncing off their armor was actually really quite painful and fatiguing (I guess it was like being punched?). Yes, the English archers beat the French knights at Agincourt. But they did it with hatchets, swords, spears, and knives, not with arrows.

Similarly steel plate would deflect crossbow bolts, and the closer you got the more likely you were to get wounded, but not

one shot to kill, and even less of a shot to wound, maim and cripple

. Considering that mail over a gambeson will protect you from arrows and bolts some of the time, steel plate would be even more protective.

The longbow and the crossbow didn't end the knight because it could defeat armor without a problem, it ended the knight because horses and plate armor were expensive, while longbows and crossbows were way cheaper.

Crossbow bolts were high velocity spikes which would puncture platemail, by the nature of the weapon and the shape of the bolt the sheer force behind the weapon was much greater. Crossbows mechanical crank vs hand drawn. I think people underestimate quite how scary a crossbow is. The drawback of course is a rate of fire at around 2 per minute. Meaning missing more than once could be the difference between life and sword through face.

That's why crossbowman companies fought with pikemen.

[Wannazzaki]

Touche. Right. Im going to stop nit picking now.

[Satarus]

Early gunpowder weapons couldn't effectively penetrate steel armor.  However gunpowder had one distinct advantage.  It was easy to mass produce and train the conscripts to use them effectively.  The choice between spending thousands of dollars on a few knights vs arming a hundred peasants would always favor the peasants.

[Necro910]

Early gunpowder weapons couldn't effectively penetrate steel armor.  However gunpowder had one distinct advantage.  It was easy to mass produce and train the conscripts to use them effectively.  The choice between spending thousands of dollars on a few knights vs arming a hundred peasants would always favor the peasants.

And so began America. 

[MadocComadrin]

Early gunpowder weapons couldn't effectively penetrate steel armor.  However gunpowder had one distinct advantage.  It was easy to mass produce and train the conscripts to use them effectively.  The choice between spending thousands of dollars on a few knights vs arming a hundred peasants would always favor the peasants.

That, and you needed those hundreds of peasants to actually hit something, seeing as early gunpowder weapons were horribly inaccurate and didn't have as long of a range.

[Necro910]

Early gunpowder weapons couldn't effectively penetrate steel armor.  However gunpowder had one distinct advantage.  It was easy to mass produce and train the conscripts to use them effectively.  The choice between spending thousands of dollars on a few knights vs arming a hundred peasants would always favor the peasants.

That, and you needed those hundreds of peasants to actually hit something, seeing as early gunpowder weapons were horribly inaccurate and didn't have as long of a range.

If there's enough, they're going to hit eventually. This is the situation volley fire comes into play 

[GreatWyrmGold]

There are games you can win with spam of "the best unit".  This is not one of them.

Pretty much, although a zerg rush is better than nothing, a zerg rush backing up some elite units is even better, spamming cage traps can deal with most threats, most others can be defeated with a corridor of repeating upright spikes, and, of course, almost anything will die if you use a large enough amount of...
(Necro, this is your cue.)

[flyingdisc]

The english from the same period has a hell of a lot of longbows. Not because they decided "hey, you know what would be a good idea? longbows." but more because they simply had a large pool of peasants skilled in the use of the bow who got rounded up and sent to war.

Just to pick up on the point about Longbows not penetrating plate - as AWdeV points out, it is more todo with the cost to train archers than their battle effectiveness.  Here is a great quote which gives you an idea of the power of a longbow.

Gerald of Wales commented on the power of the Welsh longbow in the 12th century:

    ... n the war against the Welsh, one of the men of arms was struck by an arrow shot at him by a Welshman. It went right through his thigh, high up, where it was protected inside and outside the leg by his iron cuirasses, and then through the skirt of his leather tunic; next it penetrated that part of the saddle which is called the alva or seat; and finally it lodged in his horse, driving so deep that it killed the animal

So in the early 14 hundreds, longbows proved very effective vs French Knights (helped by conditions and long marches).  In fact the longbow never really gets out powered - even when Aqubuses come in during the 17th century (English Civil war) - the Longbow could still out fire (6 to one), out range, and out penetrate the aqubuses.  The reason why both Royalists and Parlimentarians used blocks of Aqubuses was because they could be trained on mass, quickly.  Where as longbowmen needed to have been trained since they were 8 years old - and this investment was too much. 

[Necro910]

There are games you can win with spam of "the best unit".  This is not one of them.

Pretty much, although a zerg rush is better than nothing, a zerg rush backing up some elite units is even better, spamming cage traps can deal with most threats, most others can be defeated with a corridor of repeating upright spikes, and, of course, almost anything will die if you use a large enough amount of...
(Necro, this is your cue.)

MAGMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

You're welcome.