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Author Topic: Totem Mafia - A BYOR - Game Over  (Read 139564 times)

IronyOwl

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Re: Totem Mafia - A BYOR - Vote Phase 5
« Reply #600 on: November 07, 2011, 05:10:47 pm »

Jack:
Your argument has been, from the very start, that I've been heavily twisting Nuke's words. Not "misinterpreting," not "jumping to conclusions about," heavily twisting. This really seems to require that there be an obvious meaning to twist there, since the more literal "you've been interpreting his words" doesn't really have the same punch to it.

So, even specific examples aside, it's pretty clear that you think Nuke's plan was fairly obvious, including motivations and reasoning behind it.
Here's a hypothetical quote:
"Personthing is scummy, yes, but I don't think he's scum because happy elephants are fun hat nice good."

To summarize, it is possible to twist the words of a statement that is partially not understood.  As long as there is something clear in the statement, that can be twisted.

Trying to say I somehow know NUKE's entire plan because I am arguing that you twisted his words is an utterly nonsensical accusation, which, of course, means that it's central to your argument against me.
This assumes the clear part is what's being twisted, though. You've made numerous assumptions about things Nuke never actually stated, like the mechanics behind his suggestion.

A better example might be:
"We should do planthing, plus notething, and alsothing, with monkey turnovers."

It might be clear that he thinks we should do planthing, notething, and alsothing, but anything beyond that is up to interpretation or assumption. If someone then starts defending the goals or intended mechanics of planthing, notething, and alsothing, it strongly implies that they're innately familiar with them for some reason. Arguing that someone's heavily twisting words by suggesting or asking about features of them most definitely counts.



If it wasn't, you really wouldn't have had cause to doubt my questioning him on it, much less cause to attack me over it, since even if a potential meaning, motivation, or reasoning could reasonably be assumed, there'd be no particular reason not to check. You've even explicitly stated that everything you've brought up has been glaringly obvious, which really seems to hammer that fact in.
First, I'm noticing you apply my "glaringly obvious" comment to statements made after said comment that it really doesn't apply to.  This is either a stupid tense mistake or word twisting.  Based on your other attempts to apply it to things it doesn't apply to (for example, some things written after it, and THINGS I NEVER FUCKING SAID), I'm going to assume the latter.
What, this?

Spoiler: Interpretation (click to show/hide)

You've claimed everything you'd said is glaringly obvious, and you've made statements about his intentions prior to that. This seems to indicate that his intentions were glaringly obvious, yet here we are.



Yet, everytime I want to know just where the hell Nuke said this or that, you get all defensive and explain some potential line of reasoning for why his plan would be/do X, despite him never explicitly saying anything of the sort.
...Explain.  As far as I can tell, you mostly just asked me about why I said things I never said, tried to get me out of sticking to the glaringly obvious, and basically just screwed around.

Spoiler: Mainly This (click to show/hide)



In fact, you've even admitted that there was a more likely possibility to his plan than the one you'd originally considered.
BULLSHIT.  BULL FUCKING SHIT.  This is a complete and utter lie.  I said that said possibility was more likely than anything involving towntells, something I had QUITE CLEARLY stated was clearly not a major factor in NUKE's plan.  Or, to put it differently, I stated that it was more likely than something I said it couldn't be.

But you don't like actually writing accusations based on what people really say, do you, Irony?
You'd made numerous references, claiming they were "glaringly obvious," as to the why and how of Nuke's plan. Then you admitted there was a possibility you hadn't even considered. If you're claiming I'm "heavily twisting Nuke's words" by not assuming the obvious, there's really no room to later admit there's a possibility you hadn't thought of.



I know what I read, and I know the obvious context they were in (that is to say, what day they were on, and when during that day, and what was said around them).  What Irony and I were starting to get in to was a somewhat deeper exploration of the plan.  Now Irony's saying that the results we got in that deeper exploration, which had never been brought up before the "glaringly obvious" comment, are proof that I...was lying about knowing NUKE's entire plan or something?
When the results of deeper exploration both require deeper exploration and are proof that I was deliberately twisting his meaning earlier, yes, I'd say that's odd.

I find it shocking that the results of deeper exploration might, in fact, have required deeper exploration.  I find this completely shocking.

Second, this is ridiculous.  There's only one discussion that full comment of mine can possibly be seen to apply to.  That is to say, only one discussion actually fits fully with the comment.  That happens to be the "towntells" discussion, in which the results had pretty much no bearing on my argument.  So, yeah.
You're trying to split this into two parts, which doesn't work.

Our deeper discussion stemmed directly from what was and wasn't obvious and apparent in Nuke's plan. It wasn't some unconnected side discussion, it was "Why are you twisting words/How do you know so much about the plan" continued.

In other words, the very fact that we had a deeper discussion proves my point, since if the plan was obvious enough for attacking/asking about it to be scummy, one of two things would have to be true:

1. The plan was not obvious and apparent, as it was physically possible to have a deeper discussion of it.

2. The deeper discussion was also obvious and apparent, as it was scummy to suggest/question things prior to having said discussion.

In short, everything past a certain point was not irrelevant, and it's disingenuous and scummy to suggest it is.



Non-Jack stuff in different post, again.
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Quote from: Radio Controlled (Discord)
A hand, a hand, my kingdom for a hot hand!
The kitchenette mold free, you move on to the pantry. it's nasty in there. The bacon is grazing on the lettuce. The ham is having an illicit affair with the prime rib, The potatoes see all, know all. A rat in boxer shorts smoking a foul smelling cigar is banging on a cabinet shouting about rent money.

NativeForeigner

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Re: Totem Mafia - A BYOR - Vote Phase 5
« Reply #601 on: November 07, 2011, 05:34:06 pm »

Native:  Fair enough on Irony, but can you expand on Max?  Why did you find him scummy?

He was acting strange, being kind of passive, and had crap arguments. I almost voted him over Simple (I stated that I was in a toss-up) but went with Simple instead, because voting Max wouldn't have accomplished anything.
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IronyOwl

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Re: Totem Mafia - A BYOR - Vote Phase 5
« Reply #602 on: November 07, 2011, 06:37:39 pm »

Extend. Day ends in an hour.



MBP:
Well sure. Any halfway competent scum would prefer tying a vote than letting their teammate get lynched. You get 1 more night action, 1 more alive scum next day to try to swing the vote around and overall a much better position. After Nk, 7 player and 3 scum vs 6 player and 2 scum. Wich one look better ?
The one where both you and your partner aren't obviously scum and thus going to be lynched in succession, because you tied the vote to save him, which town wouldn't have any reason to do.

How about we destroy scum, if we win, he was vig, if we are not winning, he was sk,we lynch him. Sure sound like a win-win situation to me.
If we can hit two scum before LYLO, that's awesome. What makes you say we can lynch flawlessly like we'd need to for this to happen?

Toaster role is dangerous to scum. Scum want to lynch Toaster, or at least tie the vote not to lose a scumbuddy. Knowing that. Toaster shoot one of his voter, both for self preservation, and since there is a much higher chance that one of his voter is scum, since scum keeping their vote on Simple ''for Wifom''(damn you love this stupid explanation) is unbelievably retarded. Any question ?
Yeah. How do you justify calling something unbelievably retarded if it works flawlessly?

I mean, you don't think there's any chance that the people voting Simple were scum, therefore it's exactly what scum would want to do, right? Is there any reason scum wouldn't want that more than him being alive for one more day?



Jim:
The tie thing is particularly hilarious. Tell me any halfway competent scum would have tied the vote and then expected to not get lynched for it the next day. Go on, say it.

MBP broke the tie. NativeForeigner caused the tie.

I don't see your point.
My point is that it's utterly stupid to assume scum would tie a vote anytime they were able to.

Native did so, yes, but not in a way that worked or that seemed like that was the point.



Native:
I think MBP is town and just make a bad choice by killing Leafsnail.
Why?

See JACK's argument for Irony. Unless you're looking for me to state it in my own words.
I'd like that.

Max because I found him scummy and you because I knew you had a kill and I wasn't (I'm still not) entirely sure you're pro-town.
Then why didn't you mention anything about it before aiming a kill at him?



Toaster: No response to me?
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Quote from: Radio Controlled (Discord)
A hand, a hand, my kingdom for a hot hand!
The kitchenette mold free, you move on to the pantry. it's nasty in there. The bacon is grazing on the lettuce. The ham is having an illicit affair with the prime rib, The potatoes see all, know all. A rat in boxer shorts smoking a foul smelling cigar is banging on a cabinet shouting about rent money.

NativeForeigner

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Re: Totem Mafia - A BYOR - Vote Phase 5
« Reply #603 on: November 07, 2011, 06:42:53 pm »

Irony:

On MBP: I'm getting town vibes from his more recent activity. The only thing I didn't really like that he did was killing Leafsnail.

On Jack's case: Later, doing homework right now.

On Max: mention my suspicion of him or that I had a redirect? The former I did, the latter just seems like a bad idea.
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Yeah, you're a dick, NativeForeigner.
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IronyOwl

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Re: Totem Mafia - A BYOR - Vote Phase 5
« Reply #604 on: November 07, 2011, 06:56:24 pm »

On MBP: I'm getting town vibes from his more recent activity. The only thing I didn't really like that he did was killing Leafsnail.
I'd like a lot more detail on this. Specifically, what's giving you town vibes and why you don't mind the rest.

On Max: mention my suspicion of him or that I had a redirect? The former I did, the latter just seems like a bad idea.
The only time I noticed you suspecting Max was well before this, and you said he was getting back to "normal" afterwards. You also didn't scumhunt him at all.


If you're going to do stuff later, you should probably extend now.
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Quote from: Radio Controlled (Discord)
A hand, a hand, my kingdom for a hot hand!
The kitchenette mold free, you move on to the pantry. it's nasty in there. The bacon is grazing on the lettuce. The ham is having an illicit affair with the prime rib, The potatoes see all, know all. A rat in boxer shorts smoking a foul smelling cigar is banging on a cabinet shouting about rent money.

NativeForeigner

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Re: Totem Mafia - A BYOR - Vote Phase 5
« Reply #605 on: November 07, 2011, 06:59:09 pm »

Extend. Forgot to do that.

MBP is giving me town vibes with the way he's handling the Toaster matter, mostly. He's encouraging scumhunting.

I mentioned, just before I voted Simple, that I was in a toss-up between the two. I didn't get a chance to scumhunt because I was too slow about getting involved.
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Yeah, you're a dick, NativeForeigner.
Quit being such a dick, you dick.
Maybe if you weren't such a dick you wouldn't be such a dick.

IronyOwl

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Re: Totem Mafia - A BYOR - Vote Phase 5
« Reply #606 on: November 07, 2011, 07:04:14 pm »

MBP is giving me town vibes with the way he's handling the Toaster matter, mostly. He's encouraging scumhunting.
...without doing any himself, and from a wine-tank.

I mentioned, just before I voted Simple, that I was in a toss-up between the two. I didn't get a chance to scumhunt because I was too slow about getting involved.
Ah, so you did.
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Quote from: Radio Controlled (Discord)
A hand, a hand, my kingdom for a hot hand!
The kitchenette mold free, you move on to the pantry. it's nasty in there. The bacon is grazing on the lettuce. The ham is having an illicit affair with the prime rib, The potatoes see all, know all. A rat in boxer shorts smoking a foul smelling cigar is banging on a cabinet shouting about rent money.

Mephansteras

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Re: Totem Mafia - A BYOR - Vote Phase 5
« Reply #607 on: November 07, 2011, 07:08:23 pm »

The Counting Stones
NativeForeigner: Toaster
IronyOwl: Jack AT, Mysteriousbluepuppet
Jack AT: IronyOwl
NUKE9.13: Dariush, NativeForeigner, Jim Groovester
Toaster: NUKE9.13



Day has been Extended to ~5pm Pacific Tuesday. There will be no more extensions.
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NUKE9.13

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Re: Totem Mafia - A BYOR - Vote Phase 5
« Reply #608 on: November 07, 2011, 08:02:53 pm »

Nuke:  Do you have anything on me that isn't gut/mechanics at this point?
Nope.

The only reason he would want to lynch a SK over scum, which is always a threat to town, is because he's scum, so Toaster is a threat whether he's SK or Vig.
A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
A suitable target for lynching is someone's suspected danger to town, multiplied by the chance that the suspicion is correct.
If one cannot identify the scum, even if they are more dangerous, the certainty of a SKs guilt compensates, and makes them a more suitable lynch target.

Nuke: If you feel your vote on Toaster isn't doing any good, then why aren't you hunting elsewhere?
Because I can't. I got nothing; nobody is registering on my radar. All I have is mechanical and gut suspicions on toaster.
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NativeForeigner

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Re: Totem Mafia - A BYOR - Vote Phase 5
« Reply #609 on: November 07, 2011, 08:16:56 pm »

There's two things:

1) We're not even certain that Toaster is an SK.
2) Scum would be an SK's priority target (at least I would think).
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Yeah, you're a dick, NativeForeigner.
Quit being such a dick, you dick.
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Jim Groovester

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Re: Totem Mafia - A BYOR - Vote Phase 5
« Reply #610 on: November 07, 2011, 08:30:34 pm »

Day has been Extended to ~5pm Pacific Tuesday. There will be no more extensions.

Really? I thought two was all we got. And we had two before this.
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Toaster

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Re: Totem Mafia - A BYOR - Vote Phase 5
« Reply #611 on: November 07, 2011, 08:32:57 pm »

Native:
Native:  Fair enough on Irony, but can you expand on Max?  Why did you find him scummy?

He was acting strange, being kind of passive, and had crap arguments. I almost voted him over Simple (I stated that I was in a toss-up) but went with Simple instead, because voting Max wouldn't have accomplished anything.

Why are you so reluctant to post a full case?  All three of those are very vague without being backed up with evidence.


Nuke:  I see.


Irony
You're theorycrafting in line with an already-stated conclusion, though. If you say MBP is town and then provide a possible explanation for why he could or would have to be, it's generally safe to assume that you consider it likely that said explanation, or something similar, is true.

And you're right- I did.  If he's town, however, he's certainly not acting it.
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Mephansteras

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Re: Totem Mafia - A BYOR - Vote Phase 5
« Reply #612 on: November 07, 2011, 09:32:20 pm »

Day has been Extended to ~5pm Pacific Tuesday. There will be no more extensions.

Really? I thought two was all we got. And we had two before this.

Maybe I miscounted. It's been an odd week for me. In any case, I'll let this extension stay since I already gave it.
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Dariush

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Re: Totem Mafia - A BYOR - Vote Phase 5
« Reply #613 on: November 08, 2011, 11:50:51 am »

Yes Dariush.
My whole argument hinges on the fact he knew he was scum, since the last 3 whole post were about how they are scumbuddies. Are you actually retarded ? 
Just because you spent half a day weaving asspulls doesn't make them true. Your whole argument goes 'Simple's scumbuddy knew Simple was scum -> Irony got angry that you (MBP) broke the tie -> Irony must be scum because he must have known that Simple was scum'. Mind conjuring up some more convincing arguments?
Any other reason why you would suggest to people not to vote ? Night message said i lost my vote, so what ? I should wait and stay passive since TODAY my vote is useless ? Ahahah, fuck no.
Stay passive != don't vote. What I wanted to know was why did you put Irony's name in red even though you knew it wasn't going to have any effect. What did I get? A beautiful overreaction.

Why didn't you care when I did it?
Because I didn't notice you voting.
I think it's a perfectly reasonable thing to do.  Even if it doesn't count for the lynch, it still counts to show who his main suspect is.
Doesn't the vote being 'weightless' kinda render the pressure expressed by it void?

Toaster

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Re: Totem Mafia - A BYOR - Vote Phase 5
« Reply #614 on: November 08, 2011, 12:14:39 pm »

Dariush: Perhaps, but if it was anyone else without a vote and they were still using it as if it counted, it'd help me believe their intentions were honest.  Basically, there's no reason not to do it.
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