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[YetAnotherStupidDorf]

Instead we should be thinking like "we got this much done in 10 years, using these new advancements we should be able to get at least double this amount done in the next 10 years". And it's proven true so far. Currently knowledge (as measured in scholarly papers) is showing this doubling trend in just about every field out there right now and is expanding exponentially.

What a pile of BS.
There is one, just one field, where it was for some time true: information technology. And even that was Moore law, not "everything doubling every 10 years".
No, we will NOT have AI in 2045 or immortality before your own death (do I see Ray Kurzweil syndrome here?). Etc. It is just your wishful thinking.

To be clear: I consider Singularity to be point of view, not some technological version of good old Rapture. From point of view of medieval peasant, we are so deep in Singularity that he have no hope to understand us. "Make no mistake. It’s [Singularity] is coming." is pure quasi-religious bullshit. These people wait for it like believers for Second Coming of Jesus. Pathetic.

King DZa, elf-fondling human, there were and are a lot of folks in position of power, that tired various fun new methods to live. Result: piles of corpses. Banana republics, purges, mass killings, exterminations, ghettos, persecution, genocide, name it, you have it. This is how ideas that do not work ends up. And your ideas will not work. Anarcho-communism? Post-scarity? Forced segregation? Why not do ethinc purge and be done with it?

Obviously this will not be like Nazi Germany, or the KKK, as there will be no intention to harm those who dislike the way things work. They will simply be excluded to a place where they can live life the way they wish.

Like Judes was to be shipped to Madagaskar?

[Mitchewawa]

YetAnotherStupidDorf has gone berserk!

I am inclined to agree with the first paragraph; there is only so much technology to exist. Even if technology rates are incrementally improving, there only exists a finite amount chemistry, physics, biology and other sciences to uncover. AI might be a possibility though.

[Oliolli]

I honestly don't think AI:s, at least human-like ones, will ever be created. With conventional computers it would require extremely large amounts of processing power, and quantum computers detest the irrationality of the human mind .

[YetAnotherStupidDorf]

To be clear, I do not deny technological possibilities. I think true AI is possible, because there is nothing inherently "strange" in atoms and chemical reactions in neuron in your brain. There is nothing that prevents emergent complexity of mind to be created just because substrate is not particularly fun set of proteins. Same thing with immortality (as "not aging"). No laws of physics says this is impossible. There are a lot of very, very simple one-celled organisms that are effectively immortal. You can go on and on and on providing there is energy source and proper tech.

I deny there is Singularity as some definite moment where all things go wonky. These all technological advancements, while certainly possible, will NOT happen in our lifetime. AI? Immortality? Interstellar space travel? Sure, in few hundred years. Now? Forget it.

BTW I predict achieving immortality will cause another technological plateau (amont other societal and economic problems). After all, new ideas prevails because believers in old ideas die off. Conversions are too rare to be significant. While scientific methods tries to account for that, ultimately human is human, sciencist or not.

[elf-fondling human]

Now now, no need to get angry, people. That's the worst possible way to go about a discussion.

Let's see now...

First off, I'd just like to point something out. The very fact that we are human means that we can evolve. How far that goes depends entirely on our environment, but we are constantly changing. The human mind is essentially just a huge circuit, and if we can figure out a way to convert all of the trash and stuff into energy (maybe through a synthetic robot digestive system or something) we should have no trouble powering a man-made computer brain similar to that of an actual person. Brain function mapping has been going on for some time now, and eventually someone's going to figure out how the mind works and translate it into terms a computer can work with. The only real question about artificial intelligence is how long it'll take.

The singularity, however, is questionable. Downloading one's consciousness onto a computer poses the same question as teleportation: does it actually move you, or does it destroy you and make an exact copy at the desired location? We may be able to make a clone of someone on a computer, but would it really be them? There are other problems as well, but I don't feel qualified to touch on them.

The main problem with most Utopian societies is that they're really more Dystopian. Complete equality would be the end for us, because it would eliminate competition, the mother of all progress. Nothing evolves unless it needs to, and Utopia would eliminate that need. Free thought would also have to be eliminated or seriously retarded (meaning stunted), as it would most likely lead to problems with the synergy between the proletarian masses, under the assumption that there would be a ruling body of some kind designed to "keep the peace" or some such rot. That being said, it's perfectly possible to group people together based on common ideas, and as long as they can actively contribute to that society serious problems should be few and far between. There doesn't have to be jealousy, or even authority, as long as every member of the group is given equal power over the rest of them. Technology is already heavily integrated into human society, so adding an artificial intelligence or even a simple logic calculator would be able to eliminate bias. Simply feed the computer all of the facts from both sides of a disagreement and it would logically decide the best outcome based on all of the evidence. Nobody would need to tamper with such a device or system as long as they followed the basic rules of the society and, with such a system in place, would feel little need not to. Even if that didn't work, people should be able to work things out amongst themselves without causing riots, and the people that can't (even in today's society) are in desperate need of reeducation. It's completely realistic to teach people how to control themselves in public, but today's parents are getting bad at raising children to respect people and rules.

[Endiqua]

If you would like to know something specific, feel free to ask. But seriously dude, i'm not going to write a books worth of text completely explaining my ideas for a new world in a single post, on a forum about virtual dwarves.

That's fine with me; honestly, I thought my (rather rhetorical) questions were specific and intended to point out some of the problems with this sort of idea...some of the reasons why they aren't "as supported as they should be," as you put it.  You don't have to address them - I'm certainly not of the mindset of "someone on the Internet is wrong" as xkcd put it.  I almost didn't respond, but since you named me personally (although a lot of my posts were in response to elf-fondling human, as I recall), I didn't want to just leave it like that.

A lot of discussions like this are, shall we say, not very reality-based.  It's all very well to say "there's gotta be a better way" but one has to have a plan.  One can say "people should be able to work together without violence" but history is full of examples that contradict that theory, so that needs to be addressed. 

Ultimately, if one wants to accomplish something, one has to gain power first.  Sometimes this takes the form of money.  Look at the projects the Gates Foundation is sponsoring, for example.  Sometimes it's political power (also closely related to money).  Sometimes it's ideological (religion) which, again, gains a lot of power through money.  People who have significant money (power), as a general rule, tend not to wish that monetary systems be phased out.  Power corrupts and all that.  I know a few "flower children" who grew up to become the very sort of "capitalist pigs" that they once demonstrated against.

It's completely realistic to teach people how to control themselves in public, but today's parents are getting bad at raising children to respect people and rules.

I can't say I agree with you.  Sorry to be playing a one-note theme here, but history shows that people as a generalized whole have not been all that great at "playing with others" and "behaving in public," despite a series of movements aimed at what I'll call "enlightenment" for lack of a better word.  People have been bitching about the manners of "today's children" essentially forever.

Look, I'm probably older than most people here.  Maybe it's made me too cynical or maybe I'm more experienced in how the world works, who knows.  I've just read far too much about what has happened with "reeducation" and "for the greater good" efforts previously to consider it a great idea.  True societal evolution occurs gradually over time due to a combination of factors.  For example, most people no longer consider mental disease a form of demonic possession or a curse placed by a witch.

[elf-fondling human]

Spoiler: unimportant to me (click to show/hide)

If you would like to know something specific, feel free to ask. But seriously dude, i'm not going to write a books worth of text completely explaining my ideas for a new world in a single post, on a forum about virtual dwarves.

That's fine with me; honestly, I thought my (rather rhetorical) questions were specific and intended to point out some of the problems with this sort of idea...some of the reasons why they aren't "as supported as they should be," as you put it.  You don't have to address them - I'm certainly not of the mindset of "someone on the Internet is wrong" as xkcd put it.  I almost didn't respond, but since you named me personally (although a lot of my posts were in response to elf-fondling human, as I recall), I didn't want to just leave it like that.

A lot of discussions like this are, shall we say, not very reality-based.  It's all very well to say "there's gotta be a better way" but one has to have a plan.  One can say "people should be able to work together without violence" but history is full of examples that contradict that theory, so that needs to be addressed. 

Ultimately, if one wants to accomplish something, one has to gain power first.  Sometimes this takes the form of money.  Look at the projects the Gates Foundation is sponsoring, for example.  Sometimes it's political power (also closely related to money).  Sometimes it's ideological (religion) which, again, gains a lot of power through money.  People who have significant money (power), as a general rule, tend not to wish that monetary systems be phased out.  Power corrupts and all that.  I know a few "flower children" who grew up to become the very sort of "capitalist pigs" that they once demonstrated against.

It's completely realistic to teach people how to control themselves in public, but today's parents are getting bad at raising children to respect people and rules.

I can't say I agree with you.  Sorry to be playing a one-note theme here, but history shows that people as a generalized whole have not been all that great at "playing with others" and "behaving in public," despite a series of movements aimed at what I'll call "enlightenment" for lack of a better word.  People have been bitching about the manners of "today's children" essentially forever.

Look, I'm probably older than most people here.  Maybe it's made me too cynical or maybe I'm more experienced in how the world works, who knows.  I've just read far too much about what has happened with "reeducation" and "for the greater good" efforts previously to consider it a great idea.  True societal evolution occurs gradually over time due to a combination of factors.  For example, most people no longer consider mental disease a form of demonic possession or a curse placed by a witch.

Being cynical isn't really that bad, it just makes people a little more stubbornly skeptical. To be honest, I doubt there's hope for some people, particularly in the US, but for the most part humanity can be "lernd good."

[i2amroy]

Spoiler: YetAnotherStupidDorf Quotes (click to show/hide)

Instead we should be thinking like "we got this much done in 10 years, using these new advancements we should be able to get at least double this amount done in the next 10 years". And it's proven true so far. Currently knowledge (as measured in scholarly papers) is showing this doubling trend in just about every field out there right now and is expanding exponentially.

What a pile of BS.
There is one, just one field, where it was for some time true: information technology. And even that was Moore law, not "everything doubling every 10 years".
No, we will NOT have AI in 2045 or immortality before your own death (do I see Ray Kurzweil syndrome here?). Etc. It is just your wishful thinking.

To be clear: I consider Singularity to be point of view, not some technological version of good old Rapture. From point of view of medieval peasant, we are so deep in Singularity that he have no hope to understand us. "Make no mistake. It’s [Singularity] is coming." is pure quasi-religious bullshit. These people wait for it like believers for Second Coming of Jesus. Pathetic.

To be clear, I do not deny technological possibilities. I think true AI is possible, because there is nothing inherently "strange" in atoms and chemical reactions in neuron in your brain. There is nothing that prevents emergent complexity of mind to be created just because substrate is not particularly fun set of proteins. Same thing with immortality (as "not aging"). No laws of physics says this is impossible. There are a lot of very, very simple one-celled organisms that are effectively immortal. You can go on and on and on providing there is energy source and proper tech.

I deny there is Singularity as some definite moment where all things go wonky. These all technological advancements, while certainly possible, will NOT happen in our lifetime. AI? Immortality? Interstellar space travel? Sure, in few hundred years. Now? Forget it.

BTW I predict achieving immortality will cause another technological plateau (amont other societal and economic problems). After all, new ideas prevails because believers in old ideas die off. Conversions are too rare to be significant. While scientific methods tries to account for that, ultimately human is human, sciencist or not.

Just to reply/clarify my views here
First I would like to point out that the 10 year thing was an example intended to explain a topic, not a hard fact that I was stating, so please refrain from taking it that way. Also I would like to clarify that I am not thinking of the Singularity as a single moment that will suddenly change everything, but rather as a period of time in which massive changes to humanity occur. This could be anything from greatly extending our lifespans through the use of bio-technology to the invent of a strong AI. In fact I sincerely doubt that said events will have a computer basis. Much more likely is that the Singularity will be bio-technology based instead of computer science based and occur through life extension, not through AI invention. Also I agree with you that achieving immortality and other technologies will cause lots of problems similar to what you and elf-fondling human stated, and that was why I suggested that we might expand our space programs in order to deal with several of those problems.

Now to address the idea that many of these things will not be happening in our lifetimes. I would like to point out that ways to:
Reach other galaxies within a handful of years
Edit the genome of creatures during their life instead of only before it
Control artificial limbs with your mind
Healing parts of the body with stem cells from similar parts
Actually link some genetic problems (Telomere shortening) to aging
Have and are being investigated, and many have not only been investigated, but are showing actual evaluative progress and physical applications of their research. In fact several topics in the bio-technology areas are actually seeking permission to move into the human testing phases right now. This isn't a thing that will happen hundreds of years into the future, it's something that we could be looking at serious advancements and practical applications of in the next 30-70 years. And that is why I made the claim that this could happen within my lifetime. For you I don't know, you could be an 80 year old man who has only a few years left to live. But I know that I am an 18 year old who tries to live right and hopes to be around till at least 2085. And if we add in a few practical applications of life extension in the earlier years, I might live even longer, therefore increasing my chances to live long enough to see even more practical applications, therefore increasing my lifespan even more, etc, etc.

Note: I'd also like to cast my vote with e-fh (elf-fondling human) that getting angry should be absent from this discussion. Being a bit passionate is one thing, but we should all please refrain from bad language and pure "forum rage" at others even if their views are in conflict with our own, especially since most people tend to stop listening when they are angry, and what use is a discussion if only one person is listening to the other's views? (Might as well call it a lecture at that point )

[ASCIt]

It's true. Nothing ever comes from anger, 'sides more anger. Actually, I can totally believe in controlling artificial limbs/body parts mentally. For example, one could simply have them connect to the stunted nerve endings from the original.

[YetAnotherStupidDorf]

Reach other galaxies within a handful of years

This example does not match to rest, so I am going to ignore it.

Edit the genome of creatures during their life instead of only before it
Control artificial limbs with your mind
Healing parts of the body with stem cells from similar parts
Actually link some genetic problems (Telomere shortening) to aging

From those linked articles to Singularity is rather LONG way. I am familiar with current technological progress on way and I do not see how it will lead to immortality any time soon. Some life prolongation in nearest 100 years? Probably. For chosen (read: young rich white males). But nothing like this ludicrous "increasing lifespan at a rate faster than 1 second per second" claim.

And no, do not even try to claim that telomere shortening is sole and only one reason for aging.

For you I don't know, you could be an 80 year old man who has only a few years left to live.

For record, I am 30.

But I know that I am an 18 year old who tries to live right and hopes to be around till at least 2085. And if we add in a few practical applications of life extension in the earlier years, I might live even longer, therefore increasing my chances to live long enough to see even more practical applications, therefore increasing my lifespan even more, etc, etc.

This is exactly wishful thinking that I was talking about.

[Varnifane]

A couple of days too late. But...well...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Xd_zkMEgkI

[ASCIt]

See, I was totally waiting for someone to link to this, but no one ever did.

[Eric Blank]

What I find disturbing is that a lack of GIH has resulted in a repression of insanity and sexuality and the dominance of intellectual discussion.

Speaking of giant golden dicks, I've suddenly realized I haven't made any of my fortress entrances to take the form of a vagina, breasts, or other feminine features as I would in any other game. Well, ignoring modding in and subsequent forceful removal of such features on creatures. This game has really screwed up my libido.

[Eddren]

That's because you decided to put a very feminine thing instead.
A dwarven females Beard.
Highly scandalous.

[King DZA]

I had almost completely forgotten about this thread, in all of it's random, obscure, and crazed beauty. And now it is back to spread it's glory once more.

Wondrous.