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Author Topic: X@COM - Where ASCII and X-COM Collide!  (Read 122836 times)

Kyzrati

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Re: X@COM - Where ASCII and X-COM Collide!
« Reply #345 on: October 18, 2012, 10:52:13 am »

I don't think Crazy Cow intended for storage crates to be openable. The game can do that, and 'n' would be the command to activate it, but he didn't add that functionality (I don't see the control code in his scripts). So far the only cases of a usable 'n' command are Cataclysm's gun cases and sword stands, since the feature is relatively new. Future games will take more advantage of this feature.
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Kyzrati

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Re: X@COM - Where ASCII and X-COM Collide!
« Reply #346 on: October 18, 2012, 10:53:55 am »

Oh yeah, everyone should check out the latest blog post and tell me what you think about an updated armor system.
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Crazy Cow

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Re: X@COM - Where ASCII and X-COM Collide!
« Reply #347 on: October 18, 2012, 12:13:45 pm »

How do I open storage crates in Cataclysm+? Also, 'n' isn't working

Storage crates are a default prop that Kyzrati used, and I never added any functionality to them. If people are expecting things from them, though, maybe it would be a good idea to add that (and it would hardly be difficult to do).

EDIT:
Done and done. Storage crates will now contain MREs, Flares, and the odd Medi-Kit. Kyzrati has the latest version and it should be up soon.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2012, 12:23:41 pm by Crazy Cow »
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JacenHanLovesLegos

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Re: X@COM - Where ASCII and X-COM Collide!
« Reply #348 on: October 18, 2012, 12:28:14 pm »

Sounds good. Also, holding the front door of the X-Com base along with the guards was fun.
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As it turns out, the pen was in fact a poor choice for melee combat in comparison to the sword.
So I just started playing this game and I accidentally nuked the moon.

Crazy Cow

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Re: X@COM - Where ASCII and X-COM Collide!
« Reply #349 on: October 18, 2012, 12:31:12 pm »

That's the idea. Glad to hear you're having fun :D

JanusTwoface

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Re: X@COM - Where ASCII and X-COM Collide!
« Reply #350 on: October 18, 2012, 02:06:13 pm »

So out of curiosity, why are you using your own format for the raws? It seems to me like it would be easier to use an existing framework, such as JSON/XML/YAML. Sure, you'd need a library to parse it, but then again on the flip side there are libraries to parse it. Also it potentially wouldn't be as difficult to read (at least for me, YMMV).


Okay, so it would actually make the files a fair bit bigger (because of retyping the column headers), but in exchange I'd say it would be easier to read/edit without scrolling off who knows where to the right.
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Kyzrati

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Re: X@COM - Where ASCII and X-COM Collide!
« Reply #351 on: October 18, 2012, 08:03:01 pm »

I prefer using my own parser for the flexibility, and I much prefer columns and spreadsheet-style to yaml. I like my data as space-conservative as possible, while still retaining readability. I totally cannot quickly parse yaml (visually), and it's also much easier to quickly compare values between multiple objects in an .xt file, which is important for design consistency (especially since I have a horrible memory and can't well remember all the different data values). I'm especially thinking about the items/entities files here, and the particle data, where easy of comparison is very important. Special abilities suffer less from that need.

As a standard tab-delimited file, you can also easily drop the data into any decent spreadsheet program for analysis. (Right now you'll notice there are a few columns I sometimes overextend, but that's for temporary data since the game is still in development ;))

The "scrolling off to who knows where" issue is mostly resolved by opening multiple parallel instances of the same file, and synchronizing the scrolling if necessary (horizontal). There's an explanation of how to do that in the modding guide (and that's also why I include my version of notepad++ in the modpack). It's not really any different than converting the data to yaml, where there are so many values you end up scrolling up/down forever to get where you want to go.
Scrolling is also less of an issue with a large monitor combined with a small font size, but unfortunately not everyone has that luxury. One day there may be a data editor tool which has built-in support for the expected/valid values.

All that said, the data will still undergo some fairly large formatting changes in the future. One thing to figure out for the final system is how to improve "merging" compatibility like what you can easily do with yaml using multiple different datasets. Right now data development is locked in the demo stage--I haven't even started doing *any* official game data, so everything will eventually be wiped and started anew. At this point we can see what works and what doesn't, and I won't be making any significant data format changes until about 0.25, so all the mods and scenarios stay compatible for a good while.

Thinking more on the current format, I like the idea of data alignment being meaningful in two directions, which makes it much more understandable for me (my source looks the same way--more vertical alignment than you generally see, and, if necessary/efficient for better understanding, lines up to 200-300 chars long for repetitive chart-style code). File size isn't too big of an issue, but the need to retype column headers is both annoying and fills the files with clutter.

Okay, that was a long reply...
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JanusTwoface

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Re: X@COM - Where ASCII and X-COM Collide!
« Reply #352 on: October 18, 2012, 11:28:29 pm »

More of a reply than I was expecting. :)

I guess that the tabbed format doesn't make sense for the items/entites where every item/entity has every field. Then duplicating the extra tag names really doesn't make sense and just takes up space (although if you get enough of them there's the issues of duplicating the header information so you can still see it, but I guess that's just what you'd have to do.)

What I was more thinking about what your third paragraph, supporting some sensible way of merging and organizing data. At the moment, you seem to have exactly one file per kind of data, each with their own specific format. It would be nice if you could separate those out (more like the DF raws actually, although that format is even stranger than yours :) ) into say multiple files for special abilities, all of which would be loaded and parsed. Then you could mix and match files to get sub-mods, rather than dealing with moving around lines of individual files. Although it seems like you're thinking about that to, so power to you.

I guess part of the reason why I'm asking is that I'm wrestling with the same ideas in a few projects that I'm working on. I really like the idea of games that are basically just a strong core engine with a "default mod" that you can make do all sorts of wonderful things (a la DF or X@COM), but I'm still struggling with a data format. I'm not really sold on YAML, being personally more of a fan of JSON or S-Expression based files, but I've also toyed with the idea of pushing the configuration files all of the way to scripts, like Python/Lua or the like (similar to what Civ IV and V do). That might get really interesting. Who knows.

In any case, thanks for the explanation. One of these days I'll actually get time when I have a Windows machine (I mostly use Linux) so I can actually try out X@COM, but until then I'm really enjoying reading about your development blog at least. :) It really is an awesome idea for a game/engine and I can't wait to see what you and others do with it.
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Kyzrati

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Re: X@COM - Where ASCII and X-COM Collide!
« Reply #353 on: October 18, 2012, 11:52:26 pm »

What I was more thinking about what your third paragraph, supporting some sensible way of merging and organizing data. At the moment, you seem to have exactly one file per kind of data, each with their own specific format. It would be nice if you could separate those out (more like the DF raws actually, although that format is even stranger than yours :) ) into say multiple files for special abilities, all of which would be loaded and parsed. Then you could mix and match files to get sub-mods, rather than dealing with moving around lines of individual files. Although it seems like you're thinking about that to, so power to you.
Yeah, at least the very least I'll be allowing combinations of multiple files. Right now sticking to one per type is just easier. In fact, when I first started last year I did a quick and dirty parser which included a nice TODO comment that says something along the lines of "this whole system is temporary, to be replaced later." Months and months of copy-paste later, that comment is now littered throughout the dataset loader... yay!

I guess part of the reason why I'm asking is that I'm wrestling with the same ideas in a few projects that I'm working on. I really like the idea of games that are basically just a strong core engine with a "default mod" that you can make do all sorts of wonderful things (a la DF or X@COM), but I'm still struggling with a data format. I'm not really sold on YAML, being personally more of a fan of JSON or S-Expression based files, but I've also toyed with the idea of pushing the configuration files all of the way to scripts, like Python/Lua or the like (similar to what Civ IV and V do). That might get really interesting. Who knows.
Yeah, core games with great moddability are fun for the creative among us, and also have the advantage of helping to form a community and give a game lasting appeal. Not to mention it's a nice way to write your own game to begin with, being easy to modify and extend scripts/data. Go for it!

I think full-on scripting is really cool (and obviously the most flexible from a user point of view), but I didn't want to go quite that far since it can be a lot of extra work for those gains. I really like what the Incursion guy did for his game, though.

One of these days I'll actually get time when I have a Windows machine (I mostly use Linux) so I can actually try out X@COM
One of these days I'll actually get time when I have a better working knowledge of Linux (I mostly use Windows) so I can actually port the source and you're not limited by your OS!
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JanusTwoface

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Re: X@COM - Where ASCII and X-COM Collide!
« Reply #354 on: October 19, 2012, 12:05:49 am »

I think full-on scripting is really cool (and obviously the most flexible from a user point of view), but I didn't want to go quite that far since it can be a lot of extra work for those gains. I really like what the Incursion guy did for his game, though.
I haven't had the time to look through the entire link just yet, but it looks like they wrote their own scripting language. Eesh. No wonder that made for a lot of extra work. :) Writing a full blown interpreter/compiler can be a lot of fun, but that's one heck of a rabbit hole for a game. More likely, I'd got for binding an already existing language (Lua or Scheme most likely) and exposing an interface to the engine.

One of these days I'll actually get time when I have a better working knowledge of Linux (I mostly use Windows) so I can actually port the source and you're not limited by your OS!
On my laptop at least I have Wine, so I'll give that a try at some point too.
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Kyzrati

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Re: X@COM - Where ASCII and X-COM Collide!
« Reply #355 on: October 19, 2012, 12:20:58 am »

X@COM works in Wine, if you download the two required VS dlls manually.

Yep, he wrote his own compiler, so obviously he was really into it. Lua is what I would use--considered it for X@COM last year, then decided to stick with data files and my own parser. Scheme? How many people actually use that for game scripting? I haven't used scheme since back in college... Sure brings back memories: For a class project which was supposed to be a simple "walk around in a few rooms and interact with something" text adventure, I wrote a full-blown RPG with inventory, weapons, enemies, combat, and AI. It was checked over for about 1 minute by a TA in the lab :P
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JanusTwoface

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Re: X@COM - Where ASCII and X-COM Collide!
« Reply #356 on: October 19, 2012, 12:44:13 am »

Scheme? How many people actually use that for game scripting? I haven't used scheme since back in college... Sure brings back memories: For a class project which was supposed to be a simple "walk around in a few rooms and interact with something" text adventure, I wrote a full-blown RPG with inventory, weapons, enemies, combat, and AI. It was checked over for about 1 minute by a TA in the lab :P
Well, I'm a grad student / teach classes at one of the universities that still uses it in both the introductory and many high level CS courses, so I get a pretty good dose of it each semester. Granted, I've only seen it used once for game scripting (Ypsilon Scheme and their pinball games) but it's got a nice overlap between code and data that could be really useful for just this purpose that really doesn't show up in any non-lisp-y language.

Might be fun to see how many people actually take the time to learn it for modding though. Hmm. That'd be a downside. At least with Lua you get the WoW and Civ V crowds, JavaScript gives you the web developers, and Python gives you Civ IV and probably the shallowest learning curve. Hmm.
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Kyzrati

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Re: X@COM - Where ASCII and X-COM Collide!
« Reply #357 on: October 19, 2012, 04:07:35 am »

Ah, that explains it. No wonder you'd mention Scheme--you're one of those TA's / lecturers! ;) I first saw it in an intro CS class, as our professor's area of research happened to be Scheme-based AI.

The learning barrier might be a deterrent for some, but all it really takes is to make a game cool enough, and they will come...
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JacenHanLovesLegos

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Re: X@COM - Where ASCII and X-COM Collide!
« Reply #358 on: October 20, 2012, 12:09:38 pm »

I just finished my first game of Agression, with my last two orc archers fleeing into the desert, only to be killed by the remaining guards. My elder died in a blazing inferno, due to the fact that I never looked in his inventory.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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As it turns out, the pen was in fact a poor choice for melee combat in comparison to the sword.
So I just started playing this game and I accidentally nuked the moon.

Crazy Cow

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Re: X@COM - Where ASCII and X-COM Collide!
« Reply #359 on: October 20, 2012, 12:27:59 pm »

Yeah, the Elders have a handful of explosives on them. Trust me, they're invaluable for taking out tough clusters of enemies. Did you see that the Elder can cast spells though 'z' as well?
And you have no idea how good it is to see someone playing it ;p I'd love to hear anything at all you have to say about it!
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