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Author Topic: Occupying Wallstreet  (Read 294272 times)

Scoops Novel

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #4305 on: June 16, 2013, 06:24:44 am »

If occupy where to get it's wide-reaching and thorough reform, how would it have long-lasting success? Whats to stop the same thing happening again in  private, and how would the system they put in place cope with technology making abuses of power ever easier? This is assuming the protestors don't rest on their laurels, by the way. More importantly, if occupy is making demands that have a real chance of working and upsetting the power structure, and has the popular support to do so, the only thing i can see going for the potential damage is trying the same thing (without the protests) in ten years. That's currently a difficult sell.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #4306 on: June 16, 2013, 07:13:27 am »

If occupy where to get it's wide-reaching and thorough reform, how would it have long-lasting success? Whats to stop the same thing happening again in  private, and how would the system they put in place cope with technology making abuses of power ever easier? This is assuming the protestors don't rest on their laurels, by the way. More importantly, if occupy is making demands that have a real chance of working and upsetting the power structure, and has the popular support to do so, the only thing i can see going for the potential damage is trying the same thing (without the protests) in ten years. That's currently a difficult sell.

I think Occupy is aiming for very long-term goals. 

First and foremost, we want relief.  The population is under too much pressure, and people don't tend to leave themselves much room for deep or creative thinking when they're desperate.  It's not an environment conducive to meaningful change.  This is why immediate reforms to strengthen social safety nets and clean up political corruption are the messages pushes the most.  That and it's the stuff that everyone can agree on.  Not everyone in the Occupy crowd is more radical than that.

But I think there's also a strong undercurrent of challenging our more basic ideas about society as well.  At the very beginning of Occupy when I was talking to people over livestreams who were actually at the camps and stuff, one of the most common statements I heard was that they understood this was going to be a lifelong struggle.  This tells me that there was broad understanding that simple reforms wouldn't be enough.  There was a lot of debate regarding what would happen in the long-term, but there seemed to be a lot of awareness that there would be a long-term.

And it could just be me projecting, but it seems like among the people who have stuck with the movement past the encampment phase, internal debate has normalized towards a vaguely leftist anarchist perspective.  I can confidently say that where the libertarian crowd is just sick of government, the occupy crowd is sick of capitalism and excessively authoritarian, unbalanced government.
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Scoops Novel

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #4307 on: June 16, 2013, 07:21:38 am »

How is this meant to not become a repeat of what came before it? If they mean to create a system which creates something more then a nominal democracy, how much of a crackdown are they prepared for? In other words, give me specifics.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #4308 on: June 16, 2013, 09:39:36 am »

Not sure how to do that, honestly.  I can offer specifics on the immediate reforms side of things, but that's not what you're asking about.  Long-term changes are more to do with moving things in a general direction.  Lots of different people saying different things, but with common themes.  Nothing purely representative.  Vaguely leftist anarchist is about as representative as I can give you.  Political philosophy isn't known for being sharp on specifics.
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Scoops Novel

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #4309 on: June 16, 2013, 09:47:19 am »

Alright, tell me the immediate reforms. I'd think you could answer how prepared they are for crackdowns given previous experience, too.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #4310 on: June 16, 2013, 11:11:39 am »

Most commonly cited and agreed upon.  A few lists like these have been produced since the movement began.

Prosecute criminals in banking, stock market, and other financial service sectors

Re-instate Glass-Steagall

Revoke Citizens United

Eliminate personhood status of corporations

More progressive taxation

Close tax loopholes

Reform lobbying practices to limit their influence and prevent them from directly writing legislation

Pass legislation addressing the revolving door problem - forbidding government officials from bouncing back and forth between high-level positions in businesses and the government agencies that regulate those same businesses


As for crackdowns, you'll have to elaborate.  Since all the camps were harshly evicted, the movement has sort of lived on as an idea.  People identify with it or they don't.  Various social webs that were established earlier on the movement have survived.  Local chapters stay in contact.  There are various local projects done in the Occupy name, and a couple larger-scale ones, such as that debt-elimination scheme.  Lots of Occupy media, forums, etc, including the main website, are still very active.  It's not currently a thing that can really be cracked down on.  Discriminated against, sure, and it is, but who knows what form the next mobilization will take, if there ever is one.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2013, 11:21:41 am by SalmonGod »
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palsch

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #4311 on: June 16, 2013, 12:48:59 pm »

See, I don't think that's a particularly good list. Or rather, it reads like a list of complaints from someone who reads certain websites and papers rather than an actual list of implementable reforms.
Prosecute criminals in banking, stock market, and other financial service sectors
This does happen. It's more that the laws don't cover things that some people would rather see as crimes and that sentencing in this area actually makes sense (eg, doesn't satisfy people's desire for revenge). It's only in comparison to the less progressive criminal law structures in other areas of life that financial crimes and 'crimes' are given leeway.
Revoke Citizens United
This essentially means either amending the US constitution or stacking the Supreme Court. Arguably you could achieve the latter by simply having a progressive president for the next, oh, four or five terms.

As the anti-abortion movement know, campaigning against Supreme Court decisions is a great method of fundraising. You can't repeal them and so the evil you are targeting never goes away. It's a cash cow you can milk for decades. I fully expect the progressive left to continue to milk Citizens even if campaign finance reforms go through Congress.
Eliminate personhood status of corporations
This is one of those areas which to me feels like, "money isn't speech." The concept itself isn't the problem, it's the execution and overreach.

For money being speech, spending money can be a form of expression which frankly needs a substantial level of protection. Consider an individual making political or charitable donations to a group that their employer or even local government dislikes. I believe those sorts of donations require the same sorts of protections as any other statement or expression of support for those groups. Simply because money is involve doesn't mean we should open the door to position-based discrimination.

The problems come with the lack of campaign finance regulations in the USA, which again comes back to the Supreme Court and constitution.

With corporate personhood it's an incredibly useful legal simplification. A corporation is simply a group of people acting as one. Those people keep all the rights they would were they acting alone. It is simply for convenience that they are viewed as a single person for the purposes of entering into contracts, suing or being sued, etc. Completely abolishing corporate personhood would be counter-productive and destructive, destroying the ability for them to enter into any legal agreements as an entity.

The question is what rights such a personhood grants them. Generally speaking they would be any rights that any group of people, incorporated or not, should expect as a group. If me and three friends decided to band together to make a purchase or write an article or whatever we would expect a certain set of rights, subtly different to if any one of us were to act alone. The exact nuance of where this line is and how it relates to a corporation is where the debate is.
Reform lobbying practices to limit their influence and prevent them from directly writing legislation
Preventing outside groups from writing legislation is a rather silly and arbitrary distinction to draw. If the purpose of the legislation is what lobbyists care about then whether they write the wording or not doesn't really matter. Not to mention it seems incredibly impractical and unenforcible. If I was a lobbyist and proposed some particular wording of a law would it be my actions that are illegal, or does it only become illegal if congress passes that exact wording? How about if they change some of the wording?

And how about non-corporate lobbying groups? If I'm a paid lobbyist for a non-profit pro-space-exploration group and propose some language for a new NASA acquisition bill would that be illegal?
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ibot66

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #4312 on: June 16, 2013, 02:45:50 pm »

I have a problem with the progressive taxation thing. The argument that certain groups should have higher taxes than another seems arbitrary. I believe that a flat tax would be fair for everyone.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #4313 on: June 16, 2013, 03:02:55 pm »

It isn't arbitrary. If you make $10,000 and pay 10% taxes, you have $9,000 to live off of. If you make $100,000 and pay 10% taxes, you have $90,000 to live off of. If you make $1,000,000 and pay 10% taxes, you have $900,000 dollars to live off of. The actual amount of tax burden you carry goes down as you make more money, as even though you are paying more the impact on you is lesser. If you want everybody to pay a fair share of taxes, progressive taxation is the way to go because we are all paying the same factual burden rather than paying the same percentage.
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Dutchling

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #4314 on: June 16, 2013, 03:06:53 pm »

Yup. The problem is that that might result in a situation where getting a job will net you less money than welfare as you have to pay more taxes over the same amount of money.

This probably isn't a problem in the US though :P
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #4315 on: June 16, 2013, 03:09:53 pm »

It actually isn't, because the US tax code is calculated dollar by dollar. If you make money that puts you into a different tax bracket, only the money that is in the new bracket is taxed under the new percentage.
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Descan

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #4316 on: June 16, 2013, 03:15:17 pm »

Those certain groups have more money, so aren't hit as badly by taxes.

You know, money? That thing that all other survival stems from nowadays? It's not very fair to make someone give a tenth of ten thousand dollars, leaving 9 thousand for a year, and a tenth of 10 million dollars, leaving nine million dollars for the year. It "sounds" fair but it's no more fair then saying to a wheel-chair bound person "You have to take the stairs like everybody else, it's only fair."


Edit: Yeah, as soon as someone says "Tax brackets are stupid because if you go over the threshold, you make LESS money!" I just flush any opinion I had of them and label them as stupid.

Sometimes it's a bit of misinformation, but really? A hundred years of progressive taxation and you think NOBODY has thought of that before?
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Sheb

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #4317 on: June 16, 2013, 03:32:34 pm »

I think people are confused because some countries have welfare thresholds that actually can leave you worse off when you cross them.
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Frumple

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #4318 on: June 16, 2013, 03:38:40 pm »

I think people are confused because some countries have welfare thresholds that actually can leave you worse off when you cross them.
Well, the states do, at least in some places. But it's not because of tax increase, it's because of benefit loss. 'Least the last time I checked.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #4319 on: June 16, 2013, 04:36:38 pm »

I think people are confused because some countries have welfare thresholds that actually can leave you worse off when you cross them.
Well, the states do, at least in some places. But it's not because of tax increase, it's because of benefit loss. 'Least the last time I checked.

I live right near that line, myself.  Gain just a little bit of income = kids lose medicaid = net loss.  But seeing how this is stuff that only the poor need to worry about, I don't think it's very relevant to progressive taxation.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.
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