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[Nadaka]

I don't know if they give enough info to find a specific persons debt beforehand.

[scriver]

That is fucking awesome. All my "so what's been accomplished?" sentiment blown away in a sentence.

Hell, I even want to participate myself. Perfect timing now that the dollar is so low too (Because dat Smallander greed flows in my veins, you know)
I probably won't, of course, because that would mean stopping procastrinating my bank-issues and all that angsty shit first but yeah, it really sounds like a treat initiative. You have all my support. You should totally back that. Go do it!

It's not exclusively about Greece.  I believe every country involved was protesting the austerity measures and general economic conditions being imposed on them.

Basically this. Especially since even the non-Greek countries might need further help which would mean even more austerity measures... It's as if Germany is determined to wreck every single national economy in Europe as much as they can.

[SalmonGod]

All my "so what's been accomplished?" sentiment

I still think Occupy has been incredibly successful at raising awareness and discussion regarding pretty much all the dire problems currently faced by civilization (economy/environment/corruption/brutality/secrecy/media bias/etc).  It obviously hasn't changed the world, but that initial phase of the movement was a very impressive push.  It was no small feat to effect our culture as much as it did, given how difficult culture is to effect on a grassroots level normally, plus all the forces (prejudice/media bias/overwhelming police state) weighed against it.

[Reelya]

Basically this. Especially since even the non-Greek countries might need further help which would mean even more austerity measures... It's as if Germany is determined to wreck every single national economy in Europe as much as they can.

I know it's fashionable to blame Germany for everything, but it's bullshit basically. Greece was on the verge of total collapse, due solely to their own policies, if they weren't in the Eurozone, they'd be Zimbabwe right now with hyperinflation and yearly bond yields of about 1000% and rising. As it is, the inflation from their deficit spending is spread amongst the entire Eurozone, so Europe is heavily financing their long-term deficit, which they have corruptly hidden from everyone for 15 years.

Greece would not have qualified for the Eurozone in the first place, had it been known how much they were cooking the books and embezzling away. Without the Eurozone, they would have had the value of the Drachma collapsing and no bailouts right now. And if they still had the Drachma and tried to money-print their way out of the budget crisis, the hyperinflation would spiral upwards and so would their debts, since their debts would be in foreign denominations.

If everyone else is going to pay for them, they can damn well cut the size of their government to level that's in line with their economy. If one country in Europe gets bailed out and is not required to control their spending, everyone else in Europe pays for that.

Or would you prefer the value of the Euro to collapse for everyone else? That's what continuous bailout without any budget conditions would entail. Greece has already had a huge chunk of their debt completely written off.

[alway]

But then you'd be unable to buy low, sell high. You'd have to buy high, and hope to sell higher.

It'd do away with the leeches and only leave the legitimate investors. Losing out the ability to make a "quick buck" with no labor investment isn't the best argument against something.

Legitimate investors don't buy low and sell high? Jesus.

Legitimate investors buy stocks to hold longterm. Speculators rely on "buy low sell high"

fuck the speculators.

"buy low sell high" is NOT INVESTING, it's a parasitic activity that generates no GDP or value.

That is stupid becuase speculators bring stocks closer to fair market value under normal conditions. If a stock is overvalued, speculators short sell and bringit back down to earth.

I'm calling BS. It is extremely well document, one of the most well documented things in all of economics in fact, that if you are speculating on a market, and that market's actual value is decreasing, the value of the stock in the market being speculated upon will continue to rise; a classic case of a bubble. The reasoning behind it goes "Well, I'm not so stupid as to think this has any value, but I can buy it and resell it to some moron who thinks it does." Which person A then does. As does person B. And C and D and E and F. Until eventually, person X looks around and knows what they have is incredibly worthless, and everyone else knows it entirely worthless, as they have all along; but everyone else decided they've had their fun, and that the bubble is going to burst soon. And so person X panics. They sell low, trying to regain some of their investment. At which point the market crashes in a catastrophic way.

[scriver]

All my "so what's been accomplished?" sentiment

I still think Occupy has been incredibly successful at raising awareness and discussion regarding pretty much all the dire problems currently faced by civilization (economy/environment/corruption/brutality/secrecy/media bias/etc).  It obviously hasn't changed the world, but that initial phase of the movement was a very impressive push.  It was no small feat to effect our culture as much as it did, given how difficult culture is to effect on a grassroots level normally, plus all the forces (prejudice/media bias/overwhelming police state) weighed against it.

I know, or at least van imagine, but as a foreigner with little contact with the US beyond you guys, news, and documentaries, that stuff is hard to get a feel for. That's why a concrete, consequence focused initiative like this is such a joy to see. Not to mention that it's an excellent show of solidarity and way of saying "guess what? We're not gone or done yet" to the establishment.

Basically this. Especially since even the non-Greek countries might need further help which would mean even more austerity measures... It's as if Germany is determined to wreck every single national economy in Europe as much as they can.

I know it's fashionable to blame Germany for everything, but it's bullshit basically. Greece was on the verge of total collapse, due solely to their own policies, if they weren't in the Eurozone, they'd be Zimbabwe right now with hyperinflation and yearly bond yields of about 1000% and rising. As it is, the inflation from their deficit spending is spread amongst the entire Eurozone, so Europe is heavily financing their long-term deficit, which they have corruptly hidden from everyone for 15 years.

Greece would not have qualified for the Eurozone in the first place, had it been known how much they were cooking the books and embezzling away. Without the Eurozone, they would have had the value of the Drachma collapsing and no bailouts right now. And if they still had the Drachma and tried to money-print their way out of the budget crisis, the hyperinflation would spiral upwards and so would their debts, since their debts would be in foreign denominations.

If everyone else is going to pay for them, they can damn well cut the size of their government to level that's in line with their economy. If one country in Europe gets bailed out and is not required to control their spending, everyone else in Europe pays for that.

Or would you prefer the value of the Euro to collapse for everyone else? That's what continuous bailout without any budget conditions would entail. Greece has already had a huge chunk of their debt completely written off.

I weren't talking about Greece.

[SalmonGod]

All my "so what's been accomplished?" sentiment

I still think Occupy has been incredibly successful at raising awareness and discussion regarding pretty much all the dire problems currently faced by civilization (economy/environment/corruption/brutality/secrecy/media bias/etc).  It obviously hasn't changed the world, but that initial phase of the movement was a very impressive push.  It was no small feat to effect our culture as much as it did, given how difficult culture is to effect on a grassroots level normally, plus all the forces (prejudice/media bias/overwhelming police state) weighed against it.

I know, or at least van imagine, but as a foreigner with little contact with the US beyond you guys, news, and documentaries, that stuff is hard to get a feel for. That's why a concrete, consequence focused initiative like this is such a joy to see. Not to mention that it's an excellent show of solidarity and way of saying "guess what? We're not gone or done yet" to the establishment.

Ah... it's easy to forget.

They really aren't done yet, either.  Occupy is still organizing protests and foreclosure sit-ins and stuff like that.  Those not paying attention only think it's over with because all the camps got evicted.

[Jerick]

Basically this. Especially since even the non-Greek countries might need further help which would mean even more austerity measures... It's as if Germany is determined to wreck every single national economy in Europe as much as they can.

I know it's fashionable to blame Germany for everything, but it's bullshit basically. Greece was on the verge of total collapse, due solely to their own policies, if they weren't in the Eurozone, they'd be Zimbabwe right now with hyperinflation and yearly bond yields of about 1000% and rising. As it is, the inflation from their deficit spending is spread amongst the entire Eurozone, so Europe is heavily financing their long-term deficit, which they have corruptly hidden from everyone for 15 years.

Greece would not have qualified for the Eurozone in the first place, had it been known how much they were cooking the books and embezzling away. Without the Eurozone, they would have had the value of the Drachma collapsing and no bailouts right now. And if they still had the Drachma and tried to money-print their way out of the budget crisis, the hyperinflation would spiral upwards and so would their debts, since their debts would be in foreign denominations.

If everyone else is going to pay for them, they can damn well cut the size of their government to level that's in line with their economy. If one country in Europe gets bailed out and is not required to control their spending, everyone else in Europe pays for that.

Or would you prefer the value of the Euro to collapse for everyone else? That's what continuous bailout without any budget conditions would entail. Greece has already had a huge chunk of their debt completely written off.

True Greece does need to reduce spending for the sake of the Eurozone.

The wide ranging anti–crisis measures implemented in Greece, among others, include measures
that affect employment and the country’s social situation. Such measures focus on lay-offs, freezes
and cuts in wages, pensions and cuts in overall public spending as well as heavy taxation,
privatisation and structural reforms including radical labour market restructuring. In the 20 months
of the programme’s implementation, Greece managed to trim down its public deficit by more than 5
percentage points of GDP. Nonetheless, the government failed to address effectively structural flaws
and imbalances that affect the Greek economy including tax evasion. Thus the social and economic
impact of the measures came to be unevenly and severely felt by workers, pensioners and the
honest tax-paying citizens.

But if it keeps going the way it is it will result in much greater wealth dispartity and a possible total economic collapse as the middle classes that actualy power they economy are squeezed ever tighter.
This is largely due to Greece's coruption allowing the rich and powerful to escape the measures.

But German is pushing for greater and greater austerity measures for all countries which will only chill growth and harm recovery.
Back near when this whole thing started the German Fianace minsiter came over here to talk to our economists about the crisis.
The meeting effectively went something like this "the economy doesn't work that way", "yes it does,", "no it doesn't", "yes it does," etc.

If your intrested on reading up on the subject

[SalmonGod]

I just saw that the Occupy Sandy relief effort surpassed $500,000 in donations.

[SalmonGod]

This used to be up for yearly review, but thanks to our lesser-of-two-evils, we're stuck with it until 2015.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[Nadaka]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10849627

Kim Dotcom was framed, the retained copyright infringing material were ordered to be retained by the FBI in 2010. So the FBI orders it retained, and then arrests you for retaining it.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

The sheer scale of how the FBI fucked up is just hilarious now. They should drop the case now and save themselves humiliation in court. Most of this case is going to consist of the judge listing out the many, many, many reasons it is being dismissed.

[Nadaka]

Pretty much the only thing they could do now  to make this worse for the fbi is extrajudicial abduction to Guantanamo, torture and then disappearing his corpse.

[Scelly9]

Pretty much the only thing they could do now  to make this worse for the fbi is extrajudicial abduction to Guantanamo, torture and then disappearing his corpse.

'In other news, Kim Dotcom has been confirmed missing...'

...While everyone with a brain rolls their eyes at the ineptitude of the FBI.

[Scoops Novel]

I'm amazed they actually called it the patriot act. A deliberately attention grabbing name.