Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[scriver]

Dear Frumple.

1. Sure, there is a difference between "controlled corporal punishment" and child abuse, and it's the same difference that's between "controlled corporal punishment" of women and spousal abuse as well.. The whole notion of there calling it something else than beating when you are in fact beating them are disgusting. That one beating is more severe than another beating does not mean the first one isn't a beating. It's not hyperbole from my side, it's the advocates of abuse that's trying to downplay the severity their choice of beatings, and yes, you get the exact kind of argument from somebody who espouses so called "spankings" as you get from people who force their kids to eat their own puke or whips them with belts, as well people who want to be able to beat their wives.

2. Don't pretend to not be able to tell the difference between "statistical 100%" and "nobody" used as "the vast majority of people". You're only pretending to be dumber than everybody here knows you are for the sake of arguing semantics in a way that is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.

3. "Fear and worry" is in no way "vague" - we all know how people behaves and sounds when scared and worried, and kids will pick up on that as well, because, you know, that's alp they do. And they will learn that because going near roads scares their family, it must be dangerous, and won't want to go near them (Unless, of course, they are neglected in other ways and scaring their parents is one of the few ways to get attention, in case they'll put themselves in danger more oftenly).

4. Don't tell people to go make another thread after you argued in the current thread. Don't tell people you they should stop derailing when you yourself were just partaking of the derail in he previous paragraph. And for fuck's sake, don't tell people to shut up and go away because you've heard it all before. All of these just makes you the kind of guy who argues and then goes "but let's not argue" because they want the last word, except ruder.

5. And yeah, I get emotional over this issue (and don't fucking even start with the "you're too emotional, therefore not rational, therefore I disregard you" line of thinking), because it's people defending the harming of children. Kids who are defenseless against everybody, who depend on their parents to survive, who needs love and a safe place to be able to grow into stable adults. There is supposed to exist a bond of trust, warmth and love between parents and a child, but with every hit, you hollow out that bond a little bit more until it becomes a leash. And when people defend abuse, mental of physical (and eating your kid is both), especially to those who cannot defend themselves and will grow up thinking such abuse is "normal", it makes me angry. Angry to the point of wanting to deliver their kind of "lesson" to them, but of course they would see that as abuse, because "disciplining" a fully grown human who can defend themselves, who can go to the police and get retribution, who can get help, is somehow less okay than beating your kids, who you are supposed to love, foster and take care of.

[Zangi]

Eh, its all about opinions on how to raise their own children. 

Not sure how you can convey fear/worry when you know your kid did something that you figure to be morally bad and/or maybe even illegal... but yes, it is valid if you want your kid to be cautious around dangerous stuff... (Though seems to be overdoing it if you end up instilling a life-long fear of something common... which is a whole nother can of worms...)

You don't have to be an 'abusive' person to deal out 'corporal punishment'... basically lobbing everyone in that category with actual abusers ain't helping ya none in my opinion.  Stereotyping is it?

[scriver]

There is no distinction, only a matter of severity of the abuse. There is no form of "corporeal punishment" which is not abuse. Perhaps tickling and hugging. But I don't think that is what you referring to, is it?

[Zangi]

There is no distinction, only a matter of severity of the abuse. There is no form of "corporeal punishment" which is not abuse. Perhaps tickling and hugging. But I don't think that is what you referring to, is it?

I see... so there is no possible compromise is there?  What about a bipartisan resolution of mutual disagreement?  We can at least agree to that could we not?

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I don't think you're going to get a compromise on child abuse.

[Zangi]

I don't think you're going to get a compromise on child abuse.

When definitions are that far off... yea.  I figured as much.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Punishment =/= Child abuse, if you don't have kids, shut up. Thanks.

I'm sorry for the strong words, but this is complete bullshit. Everybody in Sweden learned to not run into streets or whatever without having to be beaten. All beatings does is hurt your child, both mentally and physically, and your relationship to them.

As for "there is no other way to keep them from doing dangerous stuff", if people around them react with fear and worry when they are about to do something, kids will puck up on that, and start to be afraid themselves. It's how every mammal, not just humans, teach their offspring what to not do (everyone who's ever seen a goat mum charge and stomp down a poisonous weed just because their kid got close to it have seen it in action), and it's how I got my phobia of bees and wasps - my parents overreacted whenever a bee was around me, causing me to have an unrequited fear of them, and it's why phobias so often is inherited by children. No violence required.

Neat. You got a phobia because of someone psychologically forcing you to fear something. So much less insane and useful then spanking a girl for drawing on the walls. Your entire experience is exactly why I'd tell someone not to focus uselessly on things like that, it causes shit like that. That's not good parenting by any means of the word, fellow. I don't give a shit if it didn't require violence to force you to have a phobia, because that's just ridiculous line of thinking that if it's not violent it must be better, even if it does cause things like that. It just blows my mind.

Seriously scriver, you're so out of your depth here and strawmanning people who have kids and decide to punish them. You don't know what you're talking about. Sorry. The bottom line is you're using beating a child senseless as your baseline for punishment when in real life it's not so black and white, kiddo.

I don't mean to be so upset, but it pisses me off to wake up and see something that basically is telling me that I'm an asshole for parenting.

[Leafsnail]

I see... so there is no possible compromise is there?  What about a bipartisan resolution of mutual disagreement?  We can at least agree to that could we not?

"Can we all just agree that I am correct?"

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Punishment =/= Child abuse, if you don't have kids, shut up. Thanks.

Seriously scriver, you're so out of your depth here and strawmanning people who have kids and decide to punish them. You don't know what you're talking about. Sorry. The bottom line is you're using beating a child senseless as your baseline for punishment when in real life it's not so black and white, kiddo.

"If you have kids you're biased on childcare, shut up, thanks."

Your assertion of parenthood is not a valid argument. If you can't actually defend your point I don't care if you raised twenty kids and they all became Doctor-Lawyer Entrepreneurs.

[Shinotsa]

I'm in the last year of finishing my psychology major, and Scriver's arguments are actually backed by science. Beating has been correlative to lower IQs, worse mental health outcomes, and (when extrapolating to more serious physical abuse) a huge variety of problems. Explanations and non-violent punishment in an assertive parenting style is, for most cases, the most effective parenting style in producing successful, well-adjusted children.

In addition to this fear of physical harm can cause elevated cortisol levels which can actually damage brain structures and cause problems such as depression in adolescent and adult life. Sure, this is in extreme cases once again, but I know I was always terrified of my father just when he threatened to hit me. I have no clue how stressed I would have been if he had ever actually laid a hand on me.

I really don't want to start breaking out articles since I'm postponing looking some up for research papers, but I'm sure there's enough drive on both sides of the argument to get some nice evidence going.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Defend what point, MSH? Parenting requires you to spank a child maybe every once in a while? He raised no point and this entire arguement is rather inflaming to someone who actually knows what the scenario consists of and how to parent a fucking kid.

Once again;

The bottom line is you're using beating a child senseless as your baseline for punishment

I'll leave it at that. Now end the arguement.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Defend what point, MSH? Parenting requires you to spank a child maybe every once in a while? He raised no point and this entire arguement is rather inflaming to someone who actually knows what the scenario consists of and how to parent a fucking kid.

Your point that it's alright to enact corporal punishment on a child, not Scriver's point that such things are unnecessary and bad for children. Having experienced what the scenario consists of does not mean you know how to parent a kid well. Bad parents don't believe that they're bad parents. That does not necessarily mean that you are a bad parent, but you aren't considering the possibility that your thoughts on this matter could be wrong, even in theory.

My point is that being a parent gives you exactly zero inherent advantage in this discussion.

I'll leave it at that. Now end the arguement.

No. You chose to engage in this discussion, I'm not going to let you just drop your opinion and run unchallenged.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Moving the goalposts doesn't make your opinion any less insane. I simply said spanking a child is necessary sometimes, you referring to it as if it's a beating only goes to show the variance of your opinion to the real life equals.

I have nothing to defend here, it's just ridiculous opinions like yours and scriver's that produces the people in our society that think they're above any sort of punishment because their parents were too weak spined to be firm when required. Sorry, I'm not going any further with this and you trying to egg me on doesn't work.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Moving the goalposts doesn't make your opinion any less insane. I simply said spanking a child is necessary sometimes, you referring to it as if it's a beating only goes to show the variance of your opinion to the real life equals.

beat·ing/ˈbētiNG/
Noun:    A punishment or assault in which the victim is hit repeatedly.

I'm not sure how you can define spanking as not being beating.

I have nothing to defend here, it's just ridiculous opinions like yours and scriver's that produces the people in our society that think they're above any sort of punishment because their parents were too weak spined to be firm when required.

Practically every organization involved with child psychology recognizes the link between corporal punishment and a myriad of issues resultant from it, including behavioral problems, psychological trauma, and acceptance of violence as a solution to one's problems. That these traits are more exaggerated from being whipped with power cables than being spanked does not justify the latter.

Furthermore, the body of research also recognizes that spanking children doesn't teach them not to do bad things, it teaches them that they should avoid being caught. No actual improvement in behavior is gained, only an improvement in subterfuge.

Being firm does not require hitting people. My parents never beat me, and I turned out fine. No criminal record, no behavioral issues. As they say, violence is not the answer.

Sorry, I'm not going any further with this and you trying to egg me on doesn't work.

I'm not egging you on, I'm trying to have a discussion with you and you're blowing up on me!

[Shinotsa]

A quick skim of scientific literature says that spanking leads to externalizing behaviors, or taking your (negative) feelings out on others. Both mild and severe punishments were linked to externalizing, and these links were studied and proved independent of any societal, cultural, or other influences up to and including parental warmth.

Read: Even if you're a good parent, spanking your kids can still be harmful and is at the very least linked to them being assholes in the future.


It seems there's a wealth of literature on the link between externalizing negative emotions and physical punishment, and that's just at first glance. They all seem pretty conclusive as well.