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Author Topic: Occupying Wallstreet  (Read 289969 times)

Duuvian

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3525 on: August 02, 2012, 09:26:08 pm »


Immigrants prove big business for prison companies
Associated PressBy GARANCE BURKE and LAURA WIDES-MUNOZ | Associated Press – 3 hrs ago



The total average nightly cost to taxpayers to detain an illegal immigrant, including health care and guards' salaries, is about $166, ICE confirmed only after the AP calculated that figure and presented it to the agency.

That's up from $80 in 2004. ICE said the $80 didn't include all of the same costs but declined to provide details.

In addition:


CCA warned in its 2011 annual earnings report that federal policy changes in "illegal immigration could affect the number of persons arrested, convicted, and sentenced, thereby potentially reducing demand for correctional facilities to house them."

Utah-based Management and Training is not publicly held, so it does not post earnings.

At just the federal level, these companies, their political action committees and their employees have spent more than $32 million on lobbying and on campaign contributions since 2000 — with the national political parties getting the largest campaign contributions.

An AP review of Federal Election Commission data found the prison companies and their employees gave to key congressional leaders who control how much money goes to run the nation's detention centers and who influence how many contracts go to the private sector.

James Thurber, head of American University's Center for Congressional & Presidential Studies, said amid the heated national debate over immigration, the companies have been savvy not to donate heavily to those sponsoring legislation, which could spark backlash, or to lobby directly for tougher laws.

"It's too controversial," he said. "But support for privatization doesn't get as political. And it can be done discretely."

There are more discrete and more powerful ways to influence policy, Thurber said.

"Follow the money," he said. "If the money is being increased significantly for illegal immigration, then that is a shift in policy ... a significant shift."
« Last Edit: August 02, 2012, 09:31:37 pm by Duuvian »
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SalmonGod

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3526 on: August 07, 2012, 03:15:44 am »

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Lagslayer

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3527 on: August 07, 2012, 04:20:01 pm »

TED Talk -- Scilla Elworthy: Fighting with non-violence
Only works if the violent people can be reasoned with.

SalmonGod

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3528 on: August 08, 2012, 04:18:19 am »

Some footage from the chaos in Anaheim.  The protesters aren't showing good composure, but the police response is waaaaaaaaay over the top.

A familiar type of article these days, the kind with a bunch of mind-boggling numbers.

TED Talk -- Scilla Elworthy: Fighting with non-violence
Only works if the violent people can be reasoned with.

Anyone motivated by reason can be reasoned with.  If reason is not their motivation, than it's probably emotional.  Matching violence actions with an emotionally-driven aggressor only reinforces and propagates their convictions.  Non-violence deflates and undermines those motivations.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 05:41:11 am by SalmonGod »
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Graknorke

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3529 on: August 08, 2012, 06:59:58 am »

What about the London riots? Those weren't really emotional, people joined in because they wanted to be able to loot and vandalise with a lower risk of gettong caught. How do you reason with that?
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SalmonGod

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3530 on: August 08, 2012, 07:50:05 am »

What about the London riots? Those weren't really emotional, people joined in because they wanted to be able to loot and vandalise with a lower risk of gettong caught. How do you reason with that?

I imagine they wanted to loot and vandalize for a reason.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
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Lagslayer

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3531 on: August 08, 2012, 09:32:56 am »

Being unreasonable does not mean they don't have a reason. It means their reasons cannot match up with your own. That their end goals are in complete contradiction with the opposing side, without enough common ground to form an acceptable compromise.

Graknorke

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3532 on: August 08, 2012, 11:22:40 am »

Yes, that's what I meant. I wasn't meaning that they had no reason, they looted to get loot, just that there's no way an agreement is going to be made that both stops them and nsatisfies them.
You can't really respond to that effectively without violence.
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MadocComadrin

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3533 on: August 08, 2012, 11:40:38 am »

You can't really respond to that effectively without violence.
That's assuming there's no line between force and violence.
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darkrider2

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3534 on: August 08, 2012, 11:40:56 am »

If I knew anything about the london riots I'd be all over this right now.

But no one loots for the goddamn hell of it. We're not fucking pirates. Hell, no one loots for the loot either, even traditional pirates had a reason. Almost all stolen things get sold sometime later, people don't steal for free stuff, they steal to sell it later for money.

And if that many people were looting and rioting, then where the hell would you sell it? hm?

And vandalizing? That's only done to show hate towards something else, nothing can be gained from vandalizing.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3535 on: August 08, 2012, 01:51:40 pm »

Being unreasonable does not mean they don't have a reason. It means their reasons cannot match up with your own. That their end goals are in complete contradiction with the opposing side, without enough common ground to form an acceptable compromise.

Yes, that's what I meant. I wasn't meaning that they had no reason, they looted to get loot, just that there's no way an agreement is going to be made that both stops them and nsatisfies them.
You can't really respond to that effectively without violence.

If you find yourself so deeply at odds with so many other human beings, perhaps you don't understand your own role in the conflict well enough.  You should take some time to figure that out instead of being completely pre-occupied with responding to the immediate action.

In the case of the London riots, there should be reflection on the way desire has been deliberately established as the engine of society, and how that contributed to the formation of these unseemly behaviors.  It should also be noticed who the people targeted for vandalism and why.  Responding to the riots with force will do absolutely nothing to prevent them from happening again.  On the other hand, there are people responsible for problems that motivated the riots, and a more honest dialogue could be established between influential people and the public than the shitty politics we know today.  I would argue that riots are emotionally-driven, because they're one of very few ways that average people can band together and feel powerful, when we're all so very used to feeling powerless.

In the case of terrorism, another situation that would normally be related to this subject, the hatred and desperation that drives terrorism is not just a random occurrence.  It's a creation of the military-industrial complex, which is actually incapable of compromise, because profit is its ultimate goal and violence is the sole means by which it pursues that goal.  The military-industrial complex is a difficult problem, because it's not really even force driven by any human reason or emotional, it's a purely systemic one.  However, one must keep in mind that only three things feed its existence -- profit, violence, and human participation, because the system is set up such profit and violence each create one another.  Remove any one from the equation, and it collapses.  It's thus logically impossible to dismantle the military-industrial complex by fighting it violently, because that only makes it stronger.  This can easily be seen in the way that every time a terrorist act occurs, it becomes justification for the financial growth of infrastructure dedicated to violence.  Without justification, it has less ability to gather financial investment and participation.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Karakzon

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3536 on: August 08, 2012, 01:56:26 pm »

Concerning the london riots:
It was mainly composed of the poor and the unemployed. Those who really didnt have anything to lose, or at least thought so.
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Lagslayer

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3537 on: August 08, 2012, 02:26:52 pm »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
You seemt o be under the impression that if we removed all the current "malevolent" infrastructure, in your opinion, that everything would be all fixed. But what you fail to realize is that these systems sprung up in the first place because of basic human nature and interaction.

You were right about one thing, that attacking the problem at it's source will give a longer-lived solution. However, you are mistaken about what the source actually is.

Also, sometimes a short term-solution is needed, for those problems that get past the long-term solutions.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 02:30:46 pm by Lagslayer »
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Eagle_eye

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3538 on: August 08, 2012, 02:32:06 pm »

Are you claiming people can't cooperate on their own?
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Lagslayer

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3539 on: August 08, 2012, 02:34:32 pm »

I'm saying that once they do, it coalesces into the systems we have today. It starts with just a few people, but it grows in popularity. It's a cycle we might have to just deal with in some form, that it won't just go away, regardless of what we do.
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