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Author Topic: Occupying Wallstreet  (Read 290225 times)

Criptfeind

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3285 on: July 05, 2012, 05:41:42 pm »

That sounds like a hell of a waste.
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Bauglir

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3286 on: July 05, 2012, 05:44:11 pm »

And what of domesticated animals? Many are bred for a single purpose, which makes them the results of relatively blunt genetic engineering over the course of centuries or millenia. The timescale doesn't seem like it should make a difference, so it seems like the same sort of question.
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

Criptfeind

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3287 on: July 05, 2012, 05:56:45 pm »

Who knows? Maybe the time does count. Maybe it feels more like a choice over so long. It's very bluntness means that the things changed at least had something that looks like, when you squint, a choice. To use a really bad word for it at least.
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kaenneth

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3288 on: July 05, 2012, 08:41:13 pm »

I don't honestly see the problem with creating a smart robot slave that is ecstatic about serving my every whim.  If a human can program it, a human can program the robot to be happy with its life of cleaning toilets.

And what happens if we get the ability to "program" people? If the robot is of comparable intelligence to a human then isn't it the same issue?

It's called K-12 education, at least in the US.
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darkrider2

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3289 on: July 05, 2012, 09:12:39 pm »

I don't honestly see the problem with creating a smart robot slave that is ecstatic about serving my every whim.  If a human can program it, a human can program the robot to be happy with its life of cleaning toilets.

And what happens if we get the ability to "program" people? If the robot is of comparable intelligence to a human then isn't it the same issue?

It's called K-12 education, at least in the US.

So you're saying Americans are programmed to know as little as possible? /Cynicism

/Maybe not] I could almost believe that.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3290 on: July 05, 2012, 09:35:44 pm »

It seems to vary wildly by area.  There are rare individuals scattered about the public education system that know how to turn it into a worthwhile experience.

My own experience was miserable and worthless.  The faculty where I went to school from grades 7-10 were almost all bullies and idiots.  The school spent none of its budget on things actually related to learning.  I could tell by the time I was 14 that it was all designed to churn out patriotic non-critical thinkers, suitable for little more than being a mindless cog in a corporate machine.  I finished high school in a much better place, but the last one had made me so cynical about the education system and want so badly to just be invisible, that I didn't start to take advantage of it until partly into my final year.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

abculatter_2

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3291 on: July 06, 2012, 04:25:55 am »

To deviate from solar power for a second... I checked out the most recent TED talk, which focused on Radical Openness. Don Tapscott's bit focused on some sweeping changes coming down the pipe, enabled by our newfound global connectivity... and the bit in the middle literally made me cry a bit.

We're on a burning platform, where the cost of "staying where we are" societally is outweighing the cost of moving forward and embracing change. The internet is bringing about change, not unlike how the Printing Press enabled freedom of information which the nobility and church had previously had a monopoly on. This destabilized the aging feudal system and church, who proclaimed society was collapsing, as the society everyone had known seemed to be falling apart. At the same time, the common folk suddenly had access to knowledge, and in time society at large ushered in an age of information and reason, and ultimately the Industrial Revolution.

This is incredible. We're rapidly approaching a huge paradigm shift, and I couldn't have asked for a more exciting part of human history to be born into.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

These two things are awesome, and definitely deserve to be restated many times to many people.

Also, they're actually RELEVANT TO THE ORIGINAL TOPIC *coughcough*
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SalmonGod

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3292 on: July 06, 2012, 06:09:31 am »

Just got around to watching that TED talk.  He does understand the change that is happening.  I like that he touched on the concept of the internet as a collective consciousness, too, because I've seen the internet as akin to a global brain for a couple years already.  We are all neurons collectively processing information. 

I am a neuron right now sharing this information with you.  You are judging this information according to your unique position within the neural network, relating it all to your specific frame of reference, and are going to respond in some fashion.  Even if you don't reply with a post, it just means you found you had nothing to contribute to this computation, and that's what this exchange is.  It's a computation.  What's even better, is the internet has a memory.  This exchange is stored here for who knows how long.  Stuff that's important tends to really stick in the internet's memory.  It's likely that some of you will be involved in other computations involving this same subject, and will reference this precedent in some fashion.  It may be a small thing in this instance, but the effects of these computations spread.  Information is processed and spread through the internet brain in memetic ripples just like a thought is sparked within our own minds, and the entire neural fabric slowly evolves.

And it's always sort of been this way.  This is memetics.  It's the viral nature of information.  It spreads from one mind to the next, and when a mind comes in contact with new information it is forever altered by that experience, even if only subtly.  It's an organic process of change that's always occurred, but has quickened many thousands of times over the last 20 years.

The only thing we're lacking is the proper tools for this phenomenon to manifest itself in the world.  A brain needs to be connected to a full nervous system before it can translate thoughts into actions.  We haven't built that nervous system yet.  Bits and pieces are coalescing.  We've seen twitches of movement and they've been very powerful, but it is far from the potential cohesive whole that it could and probably will be.

That is unless dying institutions manage to kill this thing before it can finish being born.


Edit:  More police brutality...
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 01:48:23 pm by SalmonGod »
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Kogan Loloklam

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3293 on: July 06, 2012, 08:29:42 pm »

You all understand that capitalism is doomed to fail, right?

I am a fan of capitalism. I think it was a good "operating system", but something has occured to me that invalidates it. We can print in 3d from raw materials.

What the heck does that matter, you might think. The answer is the limiting factor in a 3d printer is not object complexity, but design existance, raw materials availability, and sophistication of the printer to use those materials.

Know what the difference between a 10 lb laptop, a 10 lb sculpture of a rock, and a 10 lb solar power inverter is to a 3d printer of adequate sophistication? The rock sculpture probably doesn't have as many buttons.

I'll bet that sounds heavenly and utopic and whatnot. Ready to live in that world?
Spoiler: "you sure?" (click to show/hide)
Manufacturing and box stores are gone overnight. IP and raw materials become the only things of value in society. Nobody has money because nobody has jobs because most jobs are related to manufacturing in some way. I really have no clue where the world goes from there, but it can't work in any wazy familiar to how I grew up.

How do you stop that? You can't. Cat's out of the bag. It is like Iran developing a nuke. People can delay it, but sooner or later it'll be all over.

In the meantime, makerbot has a plastics 3d printer for about 2k, for those who want the apple IIc version of a 3d printer. I'm getting one this christmas.

I wonder if my grandpa felt like this when the computers were coming in. I wish he were alive so I could ask him.

By the way, we do not have 3d printers sophisticated enough in materials handling for this world change yet, but when we do it won't be long before it happens.

And corporations think governmental regulation is their biggest threat ;)
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... if someone dies TOUGH LUCK. YOU SHOULD HAVE PAYED ATTENTION DURING ALL THE DAMNED DODGING DEMONSTRATIONS!

sneakey pete

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3294 on: July 06, 2012, 08:36:24 pm »

Except; no.

For metallic objects, there is a vast difference between sticking something together with a 3d printer, and creating it by casting or forging. A difference you are never going to replace. Even 3d laser sintering machine, which is something which requires a lot of power and a machine that requires a large room to fit in, for making only small-ish objects does not substitute casting and forging of metal. And even then, even if everyone had their own 3d printer to print with, and somehow had the resources, it isn't exactly something that everyone would want to bother with making.

Your whole scenario seems to assume that resource's are trivial to acquire. that they are not.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 08:38:49 pm by sneakey pete »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3295 on: July 06, 2012, 08:37:41 pm »

The idea is that a more advanced 3D printer would be able to deal with issues like that.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
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SalmonGod

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3296 on: July 06, 2012, 08:47:45 pm »

The battle over intellectual property laws in media markets are a good indicator of the kind of change we have to look forward to.  The same thing is going to happen to other types of commidities eventually, just like you're saying, but I think it's going to be at least a decade yet before sophisticated 3d printers become a consumer item.  By the time that gets here, the precedents for how it gets handled will probably be decided by the current battles over file sharing and privacy.  That precedent is going to take one of four forms.

1.  Iron fisted top-down control of information and invasion of privacy by the "1%"
2.  Efforts to ensure consistent profitability of information and artistic media are abandoned
3.  Businesses learn to offer things that file sharing cant (examples:  Vinyl records are making a comeback because they're superior collectors items and theaters are simply a better movie experience than your tv at home)
4.  Capitalism fails.  Civilization re-structures itself.

I predict a short-term combination of #3 leading into #4.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Criptfeind

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3297 on: July 06, 2012, 08:51:39 pm »

I dunno if you guys are joking or not.
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Kogan Loloklam

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3298 on: July 06, 2012, 08:56:25 pm »

Getting resources IS trivial when that becomes the only thing that has value.

The resources in a laptop cost the same in a laptop as in a tonka truck. It is manufacturing costs that create the vastly different prices.

I should know, seeing as I've been in raw material refining (sand) and transportation (truck driving).

It's a technological hurdle.

But you insist nobody would shell out 10k for a device that could print out their own top of the line computer equipment?

Even 1 in 100 houses (1% of households) would be enough to destroy the world as we know it, because they become the local box store and can undercut the current system.

I don't see how it can be stopped, or why we won't end up there.
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... if someone dies TOUGH LUCK. YOU SHOULD HAVE PAYED ATTENTION DURING ALL THE DAMNED DODGING DEMONSTRATIONS!

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3299 on: July 06, 2012, 08:59:07 pm »

I dunno if you guys are joking or not.
The opinions of SalmonGod and Kogan Loloklam do not necessarily reflect the opinions of MetalSlimeHunt.

Some of this stuff is realistic, but 3D printing is one of those things people sometimes extrapolate far too much upon.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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No Gods, No Masters.
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