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Author Topic: Occupying Wallstreet  (Read 296983 times)

Solifuge

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3270 on: July 05, 2012, 02:43:23 pm »

To deviate from solar power for a second... I checked out the most recent TED talk, which focused on Radical Openness. Don Tapscott's bit focused on some sweeping changes coming down the pipe, enabled by our newfound global connectivity... and the bit in the middle literally made me cry a bit.

We're on a burning platform, where the cost of "staying where we are" societally is outweighing the cost of moving forward and embracing change. The internet is bringing about change, not unlike how the Printing Press enabled freedom of information which the nobility and church had previously had a monopoly on. This destabilized the aging feudal system and church, who proclaimed society was collapsing, as the society everyone had known seemed to be falling apart. At the same time, the common folk suddenly had access to knowledge, and in time society at large ushered in an age of information and reason, and ultimately the Industrial Revolution.

This is incredible. We're rapidly approaching a huge paradigm shift, and I couldn't have asked for a more exciting part of human history to be born into.
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Bauglir

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3271 on: July 05, 2012, 03:20:39 pm »

... wouldn't that make robotics equally as terrible in this future world if we had the capability to create sentient AI? The only meaningful difference between a gene-engineered slave race (better termed something along the lines of bio-robots) and robots is construction material.
I think this could use a new thread, actually. It's an enormous moral issue - to put it in perspective, abortion is a subset of "What is it permissible for a creator to do with a creation?"
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

SalmonGod

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3272 on: July 05, 2012, 03:28:40 pm »

To deviate from solar power for a second... I checked out the most recent TED talk, which focused on Radical Openness. Don Tapscott's bit focused on some sweeping changes coming down the pipe, enabled by our newfound global connectivity... and the bit in the middle literally made me cry a bit.

We're on a burning platform, where the cost of "staying where we are" societally is outweighing the cost of moving forward and embracing change. The internet is bringing about change, not unlike how the Printing Press enabled freedom of information which the nobility and church had previously had a monopoly on. This destabilized the aging feudal system and church, who proclaimed society was collapsing, as the society everyone had known seemed to be falling apart. At the same time, the common folk suddenly had access to knowledge, and in time society at large ushered in an age of information and reason, and ultimately the Industrial Revolution.

This is incredible. We're rapidly approaching a huge paradigm shift, and I couldn't have asked for a more exciting part of human history to be born into.

I suppose this is an opportune time to share the input I sent along to the Occupy National Gathering through their online component.  It's not a comprehensive "this is exactly how society needs to work", but it is a suggestion for a next step towards a long-term, fundamental shift like what that TED talk describes.  It's also my answer to every time someone has responded to my criticisms of the status quo with "what do you suggest?"

And I know it's badly in need of some editing.  I wrote it in a more hurried fashion than I would have liked, but I was running out of time before the end of NatGat.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Frumple

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3273 on: July 05, 2012, 03:31:35 pm »

... wouldn't that make robotics equally as terrible in this future world if we had the capability to create sentient AI? The only meaningful difference between a gene-engineered slave race (better termed something along the lines of bio-robots) and robots is construction material.
I think this could use a new thread, actually. It's an enormous moral issue - to put it in perspective, abortion is a subset of "What is it permissible for a creator to do with a creation?"
It was more the "smart enough to do job, not smart enough to 'want more'" thing than that sort of creator ethics. If the issue comes from creating things that are less intelligent than you could make them, future!world would have to be making sentient toasters in order to maintain a moral stance.

Unless, of course, you discriminate based on physical makeup... don't get the same consideration because you're not fleshy, essentially. If you build a slave race from the ground up (or uplift a non sentient), flesh vs. metal would be th'only meaningful difference between that and a robot. "Just intelligent enough" doesn't necessarily mean stupid humans, after all. Smarter apes or some custom built critter would seem more likely, likely specifically to avoid that moral issue.

In other words, do we have a moral imperative to uplift (make sentient, etc.) working animals (dogs, horses, so forth) and machines if we have the capability to do so? And if we don't, then... why?

New thread'd probably be a good idea, though, if discourse would continue. Derail is derail :P
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Darvi

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3274 on: July 05, 2012, 03:35:39 pm »

future!world would have to be making sentient toasters in order to maintain a moral stance.
I think we have concrete proof that we're doing that already.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3275 on: July 05, 2012, 03:36:09 pm »

If the sum of a robot's intelligence is incapable of comprehending anything outside the performance of a single task, I don't think it counts as slave labor.  If the task is so complex that it requires a very intelligent robot, then you either need to leave it to humans or break the task down into simpler components.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Levi

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3276 on: July 05, 2012, 04:06:42 pm »

I don't honestly see the problem with creating a smart robot slave that is ecstatic about serving my every whim.  If a human can program it, a human can program the robot to be happy with its life of cleaning toilets.
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Criptfeind

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3277 on: July 05, 2012, 04:06:57 pm »

If the sum of a robot's intelligence is incapable of comprehending anything outside the performance of a single task, I don't think it counts as slave labor.  If the task is so complex that it requires a very intelligent robot, then you either need to leave it to humans or break the task down into simpler components.
Why not just use a very intelligent robot for that?
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Lagslayer

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3278 on: July 05, 2012, 04:20:41 pm »

Quote from: SalmonGod
What we would be doing here is generating an informal economy that is based on mutualism rather than competition.  This is already happening in various ways on the internet.  We have websites like freecycle, craigslist, and hundreds of others devoted to free exchange of resources or organization action on specific subjects.  Internet culture in general is also embracing a more mutualistic culture, as open source software development continues to grow and file sharing communities have grown very mature about handling the innately interdependent nature of what they do.  As our traditional economy continues to collapse and abandon greater portions of the population, it is only natural that those people will band together and find ways to make their lives work outside of those establishments.  All these things just need to be taken to the next stage.
I think this is how the whole thing started in the first place. People banding together for mutual benefit, then some asshole convinces them to do things not really for their benefit. It just changes the level of organization, not the people participating in it. People are still the same.

Basically, it's just a much larger-scale societal cycle. We will eventually end up back at the point we are at now.

penguinofhonor

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3279 on: July 05, 2012, 04:47:46 pm »

I don't honestly see the problem with creating a smart robot slave that is ecstatic about serving my every whim.  If a human can program it, a human can program the robot to be happy with its life of cleaning toilets.

And what happens if we get the ability to "program" people? If the robot is of comparable intelligence to a human then isn't it the same issue?
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Criptfeind

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3280 on: July 05, 2012, 04:55:40 pm »

That's a very interesting moral question I guess.

I think in the end it would have to be, for me at least, yes it is fine. The reason for such a thing is pretty vague, but it has to be about how the robots were always like that. We are not changing them away from something. We are not taking anything away. Basically they don't have rights to take away in the first place, whereas a person does.

If you do make a robot like a human, then try to downgrade it to this slave then, then I think that is morally incorrect.

Edit: At least that is a moral I think could be accepted. I don't personally subscribe to it. But it is more likely to be accepted then my own morality and it comes out to the same end.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2012, 05:01:53 pm by Criptfeind »
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Frumple

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3281 on: July 05, 2012, 05:20:55 pm »

Yeah... the more interesting thing to me is gene-engineered... what's that word... tailored? Something like that, it shows up in sci-fi occasionally. Species. Not bring humans down, but taking something else up. Making a non-sentient or barely sentient labor species, or a number of ones built for specific tasks. There'd be no functional difference between a human->labor and non-human->labor, but the direction it came from would change.

It seems a more interesting moral question because people tend to get jittery about specific-task bio-organisms despite it being an exact parallel to constructing custom-task machines. You're just using a somewhat messier construction method... but somehow that tends to be enough, at least for maco-scale entities. We already do exactly that with smaller scale ones, to a limited degree.

Basically, the question is why does it matter if a thing is made from flesh or steel if they do the same thing and are built more or less the same way? If it doesn't come from humans, what's so bad about a
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Ask not!
What your country can hump for you.
Ask!
What you can hump for your country.

penguinofhonor

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3282 on: July 05, 2012, 05:25:05 pm »

For me, I think it's fine if you have a simple organism or robot performing a task. But you don't give it a crippled sapience just because it's convenient for you.
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Criptfeind

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3283 on: July 05, 2012, 05:30:53 pm »

Yeah... the more interesting thing to me is gene-engineered... what's that word... tailored? Something like that, it shows up in sci-fi occasionally. Species. Not bring humans down, but taking something else up. Making a non-sentient or barely sentient labor species, or a number of ones built for specific tasks. There'd be no functional difference between a human->labor and non-human->labor, but the direction it came from would change.

It seems a more interesting moral question because people tend to get jittery about specific-task bio-organisms despite it being an exact parallel to constructing custom-task machines. You're just using a somewhat messier construction method... but somehow that tends to be enough, at least for maco-scale entities. We already do exactly that with smaller scale ones, to a limited degree.

Basically, the question is why does it matter if a thing is made from flesh or steel if they do the same thing and are built more or less the same way? If it doesn't come from humans, what's so bad about a
Well. For one thing. That's still not taking something up. It is just changing the direction of the focus. These biological thing still used to (as in at some point in their ancestry) be something that had goals and life. Metals and wires and such did not.

For me, I think it's fine if you have a simple organism or robot performing a task. But you don't give it a crippled sapience just because it's convenient for you.

But how do you define what crippled is. If you give something the capacity for the wisdom of a human, but also instil a overriding need to do a certain task, such as be part of a car assembly line.... Is that giving it crippled sapience? I mean, if they come hand in hand. What is the difference? Can one not turn it around and say you are giving it a goal, then the tools it needs to achieve said goal?
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Moghjubar

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3284 on: July 05, 2012, 05:39:00 pm »

Full sentience, starting with a bank of knowledge, unable to move and only able to perform one task, with not even the ability to enjoy it.

Sounds like a product I would buy for my assembly lines, yep.
*Superior Intellect stuck in manufacturing facility, send liberators!*
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