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Author Topic: Occupying Wallstreet  (Read 297054 times)

SalmonGod

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3195 on: July 03, 2012, 03:42:34 pm »

Robots? :P

The robots are already here... that's the thing... except our economic functions have not changed to accommodate them.  When a job is replaced by machines or otherwise rendered obsolete, that should mean more freedom for humanity in general.  Less work to go around, right?  Instead, society is turning its back on people who become obsolete.  There's less work to be done, and the ultra-wealthy see it as less workers required = more profit for them.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
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Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Nadaka

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3196 on: July 03, 2012, 03:45:48 pm »

actually, yes. With modern automation, we should be on a 3 day work week by now.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3197 on: July 03, 2012, 03:47:13 pm »

actually, yes. With modern automation, we should be on a 3 day work week by now.
That is extremely doubtful.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
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Graknorke

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3198 on: July 03, 2012, 03:51:12 pm »

Perhaps have those who are capable of working but don't have the option of almost-unpaid work in those industries?
So uh... slavery?  Workhouses?
It's not really slavery, seeing as they would be released from it if they had a job. Workhouses are closer, in that the people would be otherwise unoccupied, and still having their necessities provided for them.
You know I was still talking about that hypothetical thing from a few posts before mine right?
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Nadaka

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3199 on: July 03, 2012, 04:05:20 pm »

actually, yes. With modern automation, we should be on a 3 day work week by now.
That is extremely doubtful.
Not really. Actual productivity of the average US worker has gone up dramatically over the last century. Starting with mass production assembly and culminating with digital automation of information processes.
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Take me out to the black, tell them I ain't comin' back...
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I turned myself into a monster, to fight against the monsters of the world.

SalmonGod

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3200 on: July 03, 2012, 04:06:14 pm »

actually, yes. With modern automation, we should be on a 3 day work week by now.
That is extremely doubtful.

Depends on the type of job.  You know that there are millions of people who are desperate for even menial zero-skill bullshit jobs, and the people who are already in those zero-skill menial bullshit jobs are ridiculously overworked and barely surviving on their income, while the business itself is pulling record profit numbers every year.  I absolutely believe that if profit was not our universal motivator, which selects greedy sociopaths for success, that we could be providing higher minimum quality of life to a great many more people while requiring them to work much less.

I can't say the same for highly creative or scientific work, but with less people needing to struggle daily to make ends meet, I'm sure we would see an increase in qualified people looking for more fulfilling careers... and there's already an excess of qualified people who are having to settle for minimum wage crap, when they should be able to get scientific or creative work.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3201 on: July 03, 2012, 04:17:34 pm »

actually, yes. With modern automation, we should be on a 3 day work week by now.
That is extremely doubtful.
Not really. Actual productivity of the average US worker has gone up dramatically over the last century. Starting with mass production assembly and culminating with digital automation of information processes.
You lack a qualifier. Without that, there is no way to substantiate a three day work week claim.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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Nadaka

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3202 on: July 03, 2012, 04:24:24 pm »

actually, yes. With modern automation, we should be on a 3 day work week by now.
That is extremely doubtful.
Not really. Actual productivity of the average US worker has gone up dramatically over the last century. Starting with mass production assembly and culminating with digital automation of information processes.
You lack a qualifier. Without that, there is no way to substantiate a three day work week claim.

The qualifier is implicit. The average productivity per worker. Its been doubling every few decades give or take.
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Take me out to the black, tell them I ain't comin' back...
I don't care cause I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me...

I turned myself into a monster, to fight against the monsters of the world.

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3203 on: July 03, 2012, 04:27:20 pm »

The increase of productivity is matched by increased consumption.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

SalmonGod

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3204 on: July 03, 2012, 04:30:05 pm »

The increase of productivity is matched by increased consumption.

Depends on what you're referring to.  Most of our food production is wasted, for instance.  Twenty empty houses for every homeless person, etc.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Nadaka

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3205 on: July 03, 2012, 04:34:03 pm »

The increase of productivity is matched by increased consumption.

Only partially. The rate of increase of compensation and the consumption it enables falls dramatically behind the rate in the increase in productivity.

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Take me out to the black, tell them I ain't comin' back...
I don't care cause I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me...

I turned myself into a monster, to fight against the monsters of the world.

Mr. Palau

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3206 on: July 03, 2012, 06:07:50 pm »

A portion of the increase of roduction has to be devoted to ever increasing levels of capitial in order to sutain economic growth. Then you have the portion that goes to fuelling greater consumption.

People are deciding to take longer jobs as well. Even if you think such a decision is not in their self interest, they disagree.
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Trollheiming

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3207 on: July 03, 2012, 07:56:47 pm »

Just woke up. Good replies to my post yesterday, but I've got to move house today. I'll try to crack the toughest nuts before I start.  :)

...College degrees being accessible to people of all income brackets does not in any way necessitate them becoming meaningless.

Depends what you really mean here. You're deliberately hedging by using the word "accessibility." But it's not a matter of accessibility itself, but rather the increasingly universal possession of college degrees by people that are not particularly studious in temperament. That necessitates a steep drop in value.

Accessibility was always there even in the 1960s, but the interest rates were higher, or parents had to save up money from your childhood, or you had work hard yourself and save up a few years after high-school before applying to college, so people had to take a searing self-assessment after high-school and decide if they were really the bookish sort or not. Other good alternatives existed, because it was quite respectable to decide you weren't scholastically-minded. You could still get entry-level positions and prove your merit with elbow-grease. Life then didn't require less intelligence. Office work wasn't simpler back then; pressing a button on a copy machine whose internal workings you don't understand isn't a sign that office workers need to be smarter today. It's all the same. But now we need degrees, because if you don't, some nameless drone in HR throws out your resume, thinking "Everyone else has a degree. This must be a drug-user!"

When easy government-backed loans flooded the market, everyone could get a degree with little prior planning and sacrifice. So they did. There was a influx of money into education. Schools rushed to get their cut by enlarging their student bodies irrespective of true academic potential, by creating potemkin degree programs that didn't really signify a rigorous education in critical thinking, and by raising tuition and fees. As the saying goes, "Don't leave money on the table!" Anyone with an easy student loan eventually found an edifice of learning somewhere willing to rubberstamp their application and sheepskin their four years of partying.

Now, everyone is assumed to have a college degree for even an entry-level position. No one can prove themselves by elbow grease and raw merit. Degrees are not merit, but they have suffocated merit.

And really, my point was precisely that you are not better than other people because you have a college degree. College degrees are common, and common things are not valued. There are blue-collar guys doing trades that are valued for their practical skills, and they make more money with much less debt than many college-educated office-workers. That's not unfair, either.

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The fact that college degrees no longer reflect as much as they should on a person's merit is an independant problem (as is the lack of jobs caused by the financial crisis).

These trends were building a long time. I hope by referencing the financial crisis you aren't struggling to imply that tuition inflation just began in 2008, or that HR offices weren't awash in dime-a-dozen resumes from college graduates before the crash. Careless granting of loans causes bubbles. Easy housing loans caused a housing bubble. Easy student loans caused an education bubble.

This all happened due to government-backed loans flooding the respective markets.

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Just a note, your examples could be construed as quite sexist.
Or, to avoid mincing words: the examples are clearly sexist.  Sexism of the "Nice" Guy variety.

Careful. That word can lose its value just like everything else, if it becomes too common.

This is a dumb tangent. It would be better if we could concentrate on the over-arcing concepts rather than doing this dance. You can't deny human nature. Women want the most successful 20% of men, not the least successful 20%. Are you really going to argue otherwise? I'm here to describe human nature, not pass value judgments on it. Women selecting the best men is one of the social pressures that empowers evolution.

What I'm saying is that this is just one of the many things that will seamlessly reposition itself as you try to make everyone equal. People will always find a way to score how they're better than other people, whether through more money or correcter beliefs and politics. If you can charge someone else with sexism, for example, you can feel better than him. That's just a competition to be more correct. Competition changes form. Humanity continues down its contentious path.

This is the end result of the '60s war on poverty. Our poor live better than other nation's poor, but they're still poor and suffer the condescension of their "betters" and are firmly on the low rung of the social hierarchy.

Now, my dad was an orphan living with his grandmother during the 1950s and 1960s. He lived on gubbamint cheese. Everyone was getting basic requirements before we launched a quixotic war on poverty, and everyone should get basic requirements. Government has a sensible role to play at the margins. But when you try to wipe out inequality itself, when you try to eliminate the very things that had shadowed humanity through all its history, it will eventually go pear-shaped in the most unpredictable ways.

That's why you take your time and nip around the edges. The central problem facing humanity is that human nature is not pretty. Let's contain that, rather than quixotically trying to eradicate it.
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Trollheiming

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3208 on: July 03, 2012, 08:19:46 pm »

My dad is disabled and receives about $5,000 per year from that. Not exactly enough to run the AC, get a 4mbps connection, or really buy many groceries. He runs a small woodcrafts business on the side to supplement that, and those combined put him right around the poverty level.

It does vary from state to state, and situation to situation. Usually, disability is less than money given to mothers with dependents, obviously. My mom was a social worker for the Michigan DSS during the 1980s and 1990s, before President Clinton reined in the worst excesses of the Great Society,  and my comments were about the specific follies and hubris of the Great Society and AFDC welfare pay-outs tied to single mother status. Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC) is the term for welfare to single mothers in Michigan

My mom recently retired after 30 years, but as I understand it, if you're a single mother in Michigan with two or three children, you can still get a decent check, and then you've got the fathers dropping by, and you've got a little unreported income on the side. Her job involved actually going into their houses and asking questions about how they afforded this or that, or why a pair of men's shoes were near left the door mat.

Regardless, they still are poor, they bear a social stigma, they're still unhappy with their lives. Amenities increased, but status did not, and the rolls of the program only shrank when Clinton-era workfare was introduced.
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