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Author Topic: Occupying Wallstreet  (Read 290325 times)

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3150 on: July 02, 2012, 07:45:04 pm »

The article doesn't say what the bill actually does, though.
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Lagslayer

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3151 on: July 02, 2012, 08:15:45 pm »

The article doesn't say what the bill actually does, though.
I was wondering about that, too. Can anyone provide a link to the version of the bill that passed? The absolute final version.

SalmonGod

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3152 on: July 02, 2012, 10:17:54 pm »

I wondered the same when I read that article, but I didn't have time to dig up any more info.

Here's another article that explains a bit more.

This looks like a more detailed breakdown on the CA Attorney General's website.
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Truean

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3153 on: July 02, 2012, 10:21:49 pm »

I wondered the same when I read that article, but I didn't have time to dig up any more info.

Here's another article that explains a bit more.

This looks like a more detailed breakdown on the CA Attorney General's website.

Did... did I read that right? Is making lenders actually follow the law allegedly going to ruin the stimulation of california's economy and keep property taxes lower for longer...? How the .... is anyone believeing that. Forcing people to follow the law ruins the economy? [walks away babbling about this and asking questions to thin air]. Of course, it all makes sense now. We should just let the banks keep breaking the law blatantly, because it will stimulate the economy? Why didn't I see it all before? Clearly enforcing the laws against businesses is bad but enforcing the law when it benefits businesses is good. Brilliant?
« Last Edit: October 04, 2012, 11:13:26 pm by Truean »
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SalmonGod

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3154 on: July 02, 2012, 10:38:11 pm »

I wondered the same when I read that article, but I didn't have time to dig up any more info.

Here's another article that explains a bit more.

This looks like a more detailed breakdown on the CA Attorney General's website.

Did... did I read that right? Is making lenders actually follow the law allegedly going to ruin the stimulation of california's economy and keep property taxes lower for longer...? How the hell is anyone stupid enough to believe that. Forcing people to follow the law ruins the economy? [walks away babbling about this and asking questions to thin air]. Of course, it all makes sense now. We should just let the banks keep breaking the law blatantly, because it will stimulate the economy. Why didn't I see it all before? Clearly enforcing the laws against businesses is bad but enforcing the law when it benefits businesses is good. Brilliant!

People will believe it for no other reason than it's their party saying it... and they repeat it often and loudly.  You think the people saying it actually believe it?
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3155 on: July 02, 2012, 10:41:30 pm »

You think the people saying it actually believe it?
I think they do genuinely believe it. Conclusions such as those are reached through faulty logic, but that doesn't mean they don't believe in their faulty logic.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3156 on: July 02, 2012, 10:58:53 pm »

You think the people saying it actually believe it?
I think they do genuinely believe it. Conclusions such as those are reached through faulty logic, but that doesn't mean they don't believe in their faulty logic.

I think they're doing their best to propagate whatever belief among the populace that best serves their own interest.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
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Putnam

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3157 on: July 02, 2012, 11:00:12 pm »

You could say the same of anyone.

SalmonGod

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3158 on: July 02, 2012, 11:08:50 pm »

You could say the same of anyone.

Not everyone will do so if it means blatantly lying or saying things that make no sense.  If this wasn't a unique quality or talent, would we have politicians? :P
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3159 on: July 02, 2012, 11:12:53 pm »

The things they say make sense if you're deluded. Conservatives aren't a malicious force of evil that have the objective of hurting as many people as possible. I used to be a conservative, I should know. It's another way of thinking entirely. A different system of values at the most basic level, and even though I now am utterly opposed to it, I am glad that I used to follow it so I could have perspective on it.
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To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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Descan

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3160 on: July 02, 2012, 11:19:12 pm »

I understand why conservatives think the way they do, for the most part.

It's because they have different priorities than I or other similar minded people.

WHY they have that priority/those priorities, I don't know.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2012, 11:57:28 pm by Descan »
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SalmonGod

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3161 on: July 02, 2012, 11:56:38 pm »

Yeah, I understand that they're a different set of values.... but they're pretty straightforward about those values being subservience to the rich, rejection of logic (not in the sense that they're stupid but that they deliberately reject logic...), and forfeiting the lives of anyone who gets screwed by bloodthirsty competition or isn't otherwise useful to the rich.  This isn't even reading between the lines.  It's pretty straightforward.  This is just a different set of values, but that reduce my opposition to them or change my assessment that conservative politicians will say things they don't really believe because it's advantageous for them if any portion of the populace believes it.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Putnam

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3162 on: July 03, 2012, 12:04:49 am »

No. That's awfully unfair to assume that the other side is selfish. Read "Still the Best Hope" by Dennis Prager. It shows why conservatives think the way they do, and what they think about liberals. It's by a great debater--he does his research.

To sum up: conservatism is based on objective morality--in D&D morality (an awful simplification), they could be considered lawful good by themselves, lawful neutral by their opponents, and lawful evil by their more angry opponents. Liberalism (at least, in his view) is based on emotion--his view being based mostly on the left-wing of the baby boomer generation. Please read it. It's always good to get some different views from what you know. It hasn't swayed my views, but it has made me realize the reason for conservatism and its policy decisions.

Bauglir

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3163 on: July 03, 2012, 12:17:00 am »

Yeah, I think those things you mentioned are consequences of motivations they have, and even then only in some subsets of conservatives as a whole (also, most politicians). In my experience, the fundamental belief is that there are things that are Right, and things that are Wrong, and what falls into which category is dependent on tradition and family beliefs. Usually, they retain logic, but those classifications are axioms - not conclusions that need to be supported with logic. Throw in a few more fallacies that often sneak into all human thought (you get the Naturalistic Fallacy through the assumption that the world is fundamentally fair, for instance, as opposed to its manifestation in stereotypical liberal beliefs that natural is better than artificial), and you wind up with some really unfortunate consequences.

Like several people have said, it's not a belief system I am a part of, but it's certainly not based on anything sinister. With few exceptions, people tend to believe they're doing good - the evil is an unexpected side-effect or a skewed priority. And in the latter case, it's usually accomplished by minimizing the amount they think about the problem at all, rather than consciously deciding that it's less important.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3164 on: July 03, 2012, 12:36:42 am »

Yeah, I understand that they're a different set of values.... but they're pretty straightforward about those values being subservience to the rich, rejection of logic (not in the sense that they're stupid but that they deliberately reject logic...), and forfeiting the lives of anyone who gets screwed by bloodthirsty competition or isn't otherwise useful to the rich.  This isn't even reading between the lines.  It's pretty straightforward.
If that's how you see it, I'm fairly certain you've never been a conservative.

Capitalism is Fair Play
Conservatives do not see themselves as subservient to the rich. Conservatives don't see themselves as subservient to anyone, nor would they accept such a position as theirs. Conservatives see capitalism as a meritocratic system where moral and hard-working people naturally rise to the top while profligates and criminals naturally sink to the bottom. To them, everyone is afforded what they "deserve" in life naturally through economic freedom. As much as people generally deride conservatives as cynical, they have a pretty idealistic view of how society works. Conservatives see the efforts of liberals to reduce economic freedom and equalize society as an effort to steal from the best of us to help the worst of us and end class mobility in the name of political correctness and unrealistic views of human society. To them, the efforts of liberals are completely and utterly asinine, as well as naively expressing the idea that the underclass could really exist unless they basically chose to be an underclass or did evil things that brought their own downfall.

And the worst part of it all is that they think like this because, when conservative politicians were young and impressed upon the world, well, this wasn't actually too far from all being true. A simple factory job could feed your family and put you through college. You could start a tiny shop, grow it into a chain, and even a corporation if you did well enough. There were still problems with their viewpoint even then, sure, but wasn't divorced from reality.

Conservatives didn't change. That they don't change is the whole point. The world changed instead.

Liberals are Change Incarnate
Liberals, on the other hand, went with the flow of the world's change. Do you know why young people are always more liberal than old people? Its because the young are brought into the world without a past of their own and can see it free from preexisting bias in a way that older people never can. They can see what must be done to fix a modern situation, clear as day, while their parents sit mired in the memories of their own youth and must reconcile past reality with present reality. Conservatives increase with age because of a failure to modify the most basic truths of your perception. It isn't easy to do that. You can't really fault people for falling behind the times. To prevent that they must change. Change is scary.

And so are people who change. Conservatives don't reject logic, they reject liberals as crazy for trying to make the world something it isn't. To them, the world of their childhood still exists, but in reality it does not. To conservatives, we live in the best of all possible worlds. Liberals trying to make a new world scares and angers conservatives on a fundamental level because they are certain that the new world will be worse than the old one. How can you ever improve on perfect?

Deus Vult
Conservatives see the world as having a framework not created by humans, but existing as a consequence of the world existing at all. For most conservatives, this is reasoned as being so due to the will of God. The idea of a will of God is really the driving force behind Social Conservatism. To them, without a framework, there is only chaos. People cannot be trusted to control themselves. Trusting people to control themselves is what got humanity thrown out of Eden. People cannot be pure unless a force makes them so. Abortion has to be illegal or women will abandon their responsibilities as mothers and kill their children. Gay Marriage has to be illegal or we will lose our moral high ground and God will curse us as sexual promiscuity infiltrates all of society. Our religious enemies want to kill and enslave all of us and will do so the first chance they get unless we maintain strict national security. The liberals and their fucking weakness are going to be the death of us all. This isn't crazy talk to conservatives. This is real. Can you imagine that, for a second? Living in a world where all of that is a real, legitimate threat to the people of the nation? To you? To the people you love?

It's terrifying. In reality it's delusional, but to conservatives it is an existential threat, and they do the things they do because the Way Things Are is the only way. Not even the only good way. The only way.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2012, 12:39:56 am by MetalSlimeHunt »
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.
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