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Author Topic: Occupying Wallstreet  (Read 297409 times)

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2895 on: March 11, 2012, 11:31:58 pm »

this is kinda off topic but since this thread is about police brutality now anyway just htought Iw oudl mention that a Us soldier went beserk in Afganistan, forget the specific region, went out earlly in the morning today to a village outside of town, and just started shooting at people. don't know how many he killed.

Just saw this a few minutes ago.  He killed 18 civilians.
9 of them children. 4 of them elderly men.

This sort of thing can't keep happening. Months, if not years of progress in stabilizing Afghanistan are being lost because of incidents like this. Every time something goes wrong the Taliban get a little more support, and the US looks significantly worse, if that's even possible in a place like Afghanistan.
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Truean

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2896 on: March 12, 2012, 05:32:15 pm »

Preface:
So, as some of you know, I've helped out certain local protests affiliated with this movement. My contributions have been pretty much obtaining permits (to protest), coordinating logistics, sometimes defending wrongfully arrested people in court to secure release bail and throwing out charges, advisement, and things of that nature. So far the results of my services have been pretty good, the police have a hard time arresting you for doing what a permit says you can do (lawfully), etc, etc, etc. I've done this all for free actually, which is a rarity for an attorney. That said, I don't want to lead anything if at all possible.

Lack of Organization:
You know, doesn't have to be a hierarchical thing with one guy or something but.... I'm just finding it hard to work without some sort of structure. Yeah, I'm obsessed with organization: occupational hazard and I say a good thing.... There are some minor annoyance topics, like me getting repaid the $35 the city charges for public protest permits (really if each person paid like a couple cents, as in literal pocket change, that'd cover it so I didn't get stuck with it and nobody'd get arrested). Then there are the sorta more annoying things, like trying to talk to essentially a leaderless mob of 200-300 people: some of whom are now trying to say I'm being an asshole by advising them not to do certain things so they don't get arrested (or to make sure they get out sooner if they are arrested). I'm really not trying to be bossy or anything, but if they do the stuff I'm telling them, then I can keep the police off their ass.... If they don't... :(.

If you are in a jail cell, then people cannot hear your message....

Additionally, I know I'm not the first to say it, but lack of leadership means less clear goals and also that lots of fringe people can come in and say their message is now part of yours. You might not agree with some of the stuff they say.

Backlash:
In addition to some but not all people not liking the help I'm giving, they are also sort of getting upset about other aspects of their support network sometimes. For example... There's a warehouse where we store supplies and the guy who owns it is nice enough to let us use it. People have been giving him flack, which is kinda stupid because if he says he doesn't wanna store your stuff (also for free) then you're screwed. All I do is try to keep accurate records of what we have. This guy is providing floor space to store it and he is under no obligation to do so. Yeah, he doesn't let people come and go as they please, so what. Small price to pay....

Goals and disconnects:
Traditionally, politicians can ignore one person, but if you get a group together, they see a voting block. Politicians don't ignore voting blocks; except they now seem to be ignoring OWS, which is weird and counter to precedent. Why?

Ok, so there's a general feeling of "things are not right." Fine, I agree with that. Those few democratic politicians I've spoken too have the following problem: "what would you like me to do about it?" Politicians have power, because they vote on laws. Laws are (supposed to be) practical tools to take what we want and make it a reality. To my knowledge, there aren't any drafted bills (proposed laws) of even administrative policies for politicians to vote on.

This could be something as simple as a law more clearly defining policy brutality, or a departmental rule changing what police may and may not do to be more fair....

Nothing for politicians to vote on; no means of implementing change; stagnation.

Summation:
I dunno if I'm there's someone else I should be talking to or what, but I'm finding it incredibly difficult to help this movement lately. The $35 permit fee (keeping people from arrest) is a nuisance, sure. Some protestors ignoring advice meant to keep them from giving the police any reason to get involved is a larger problem. Some people hassling the support network making this possible is a big problem (unless anyone wants to come up with storage space elsewhere). Not using the system to try and change unfair rules... just seems counterproductive to me.

The crappy stuff we have in place now was put into place by the system. That same system can be used to repeal or amend laws and policies, but it if I'm not mistaken, that doesn't appear to be on the radar right now?

What am I missing? Is there some sort of leadership for this stuff? If it's non traditional, fine, how it is set up?
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 05:39:01 pm by Truean »
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SalmonGod

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2897 on: March 16, 2012, 02:14:56 pm »

This is the nail in the coffin.  America is dead to me.

Truean:  I'm sorry to hear about your troubles, and wish I had some advice.  I think it's awesome that you're trying.  As much as I support the Occupy movement, I must admit not everyone involved is a genius.
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Nadaka

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2898 on: March 16, 2012, 02:29:42 pm »

This is the nail in the coffin.  America is dead to me.

Truean:  I'm sorry to hear about your troubles, and wish I had some advice.  I think it's awesome that you're trying.  As much as I support the Occupy movement, I must admit not everyone involved is a genius.

Obama KNOWS this is an unconstitutional violation of the the first amendment. What the fuck, this is unforgivable. I believe that libertarian economic policy is unjust, destructive, deranged tools of oppression. But the republicans and democrats have been taking an incredible shit on basic fundamental rights. Yay. I get to pick what color of boot gets to stomp me into the ground. Red, Blue or Yellow, it does not matter.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2899 on: March 16, 2012, 02:31:18 pm »

This is the nail in the coffin. 
Lawsuit, Federal Judge moratorium, and SCOTUS appeal in three....two.....
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Nadaka

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2900 on: March 16, 2012, 02:37:18 pm »

This is the nail in the coffin. 
Lawsuit, Federal Judge moratorium, and SCOTUS appeal in three....two.....

From what I have heard about the constitutional challenge process, that is going to have to wait until after someone gets convicted under this law.
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Take me out to the black, tell them I ain't comin' back...
I don't care cause I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me...

I turned myself into a monster, to fight against the monsters of the world.

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2901 on: March 16, 2012, 02:42:51 pm »

This is the nail in the coffin. 
Lawsuit, Federal Judge moratorium, and SCOTUS appeal in three....two.....

From what I have heard about the constitutional challenge process, that is going to have to wait until after someone gets convicted under this law.
Indicted, not convicted. Which shouldn't take long given how atrocious it is.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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Aqizzar

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2902 on: March 16, 2012, 02:52:06 pm »

This is the nail in the coffin.  America is dead to me.

Quote
Gabe Rottman of the American Civil Liberties Union adds to IB Times, "Bottom line, it doesn't create any new violations of the law.”

I have to say, I'm willing to agree with him.  As stated, the only substantive change in the law is that it would make violating a Secret Service protection zone a crime, whether you knew they were there or not.  I'm honestly surprised that wasn't already the case, because that would make it the only aspect of US law I've ever seen that didn't embrace the "ignorance is no excuse" philosophy.  If you want to argue with that philosophy, that's a separate question (and I one I'd have), but it's not like it's changing the Secret Service's jurisdiction or anything.

Yes, I'm sure there's a conspiracy theory to be made where people are going to be rounded up en masse by federal custody because, "You were in a Secret Service protected area.  You didn't know?  Too bad.  Didn't see them?  That's how good they are."  But c'mon.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2903 on: March 16, 2012, 03:50:27 pm »

I'm incredibly cynical when it comes to these things.  I don't expect people to be rounded up en masse.  Like all the most dangerous legislation, it is written to allow for selective enforcement -- a low profile arrest here and there according to who is least favored by the state.  Even if this bill isn't the most horrible thing imaginable, it is still more susceptible to abuse then its predecessor, and you can be sure that in a couple years there will be another iteration.
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darkflagrance

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2904 on: March 16, 2012, 05:13:33 pm »

It's all about divide and conquer. As long as the government never lets the middle class feel threatened by these abuses and only targets those painted as criminal by society (drug user, terrorist, hippie protestor, unemployed, gay, minority), then even the restricting of important rights will not cause widespread revolt. On the bright side, that also means that if you're a member of the middle class, you're only likely to have your rights abused if you happen to get to close to one of these arrests or if you are mistakenly targeted. And if you're a member of a marginalized group, as long as you cooperate with the government in general in its prosecution of the less fortunate, you'll be spared for a little while longer.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2905 on: March 18, 2012, 10:26:44 am »

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Heron TSG

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2906 on: March 18, 2012, 10:44:15 am »

Yup. Although I still have no idea why articles like that are claiming that OWS is against capitalism.
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Nadaka

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2907 on: March 18, 2012, 12:16:08 pm »

Yup. Although I still have no idea why articles like that are claiming that OWS is against capitalism.

1: So they can demonize and discredit the movement by any means necessary.

2: Because the very few organizations against capitalism do support OWS.

3: Because capitalism is a religion. And anything that does not deify the invisible hand of the unregulated marketplace is complete blasphemy.
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Take me out to the black, tell them I ain't comin' back...
I don't care cause I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me...

I turned myself into a monster, to fight against the monsters of the world.

MetalSlimeHunt

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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

Heron TSG

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2909 on: March 18, 2012, 06:53:59 pm »

"Quick, crush the dissidents before they give anyone any ideas!"
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