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[ECrownofFire]

Hahahahahaha, as if something could save your economy now. They won't be any menial job for them as everything relocated in Asia, and you're in a TON of debt, so there is no chance of regrowth.
If OWS doesn't bring a change, you're dead.

Simply slashing the massive military budget (and the federal budget in general) would do wonders. But no, we have to "FIGHT THE TERRORISTS!" in every fucking country on Earth.

[GlyphGryph]

Although, to a certain extent there's a question of how good our "economy" can even get with the environment we have now. A lot of our success and prosperity is based on, quite simply, unsustainable foundations. The economy isn't even doing that bad! Unemployment is high, but a great many businesses seem to actually be making more profit now than they were five years ago.

That's not the sign of a struggling economy - that's the sign of an economy that has decided it no longer has a use for its labor surplus.

ECrownofFire:
The military budget is a big part of what keeps a huge portion of the USA's otherwise not terribly employable young folk and a large portion of engineers employed. You think we have unemployment problems NOW? Watch what happens when you cut the military.

[Phmcw]

@GlyphGlyph : 1) how much many of these business mainly work abroad? Third sector is great and all, but real value lie in the first and second one. I can't believe that we let an Indian businessman buy all of our steel production for instance , the person responsible for this decision should be tried for treason

2) It's still money pissed in the wind, you could as well distribute it in the street : that army will force you to use it or die bearing its weight. It's burning money like there's no tomorrow.

@Ecrownoffire : terrorism is a bad excuse, and not at all the main reason, which is that the peoples that sell weapons hold a fair share of congress.

[Lagslayer]

Slashing the military budget is not the best idea. I'm not going to argue that it could stand some trimming here and there for the sake of efficiency. I am, however, going to argue that the world needs a police force. If the US suddenly pulls back a lot of that responsibility, then someone else is going to have to pick up the slack. That means if you don't live in the US, expect your military spending to go way up. That or just bow to a new power that will fill the power vacuum. I'm sure you'd love Chinese dominance so much better. Don't even start on that UN thing. Most countries can barely keep themselves running properly, let alone trying to bring everyone together under one banner.

All the problems with the economy and governments are the result of basic human response (they are just made up of people, their interactions, and their ideas). If we cannot compensate for this somehow, all of this will inevitably crop up again. Attack the problem at it's source, don't just cover up the symptoms. The issues closer to the end result or farther away from the root cause that you address is increasingly superficial.

It's not just the leaders' fault for corralling people to their demise, but also the fault of the people for not paying attention or just not caring. There's no compensating for willful ignorance.

[Phmcw]

A police force without laws is just a bunch of armed thugs. So before calling yourself a world police, respect international laws, which you don't do. Who are you protecting? Europe? It's the second force in the world. African countries? Good one! Japan? Well maybe, but you don't need a quarter of your current budget for that. South American countries? From who? Your oil supplies? Yeah, that one I grant you, but protecting your own interest is not exactly policing the world. Beside Saudi Arabia isn't exactly a model of anything.

[Nadaka]

Hahahahahaha, as if something could save your economy now. They won't be any menial job for them as everything relocated in Asia, and you're in a TON of debt, so there is no chance of regrowth.
If OWS doesn't bring a change, you're dead.

Simply slashing the massive military budget (and the federal budget in general) would do wonders. But no, we have to "FIGHT THE TERRORISTS!" in every fucking country on Earth.

Uh... No, that is ridiculous. That is as ridiculous as saying that taking a shotgun blast to the head can cure a migraine. Slashing the military budget will unquestionably harm the US economy. The military employs a lot of people directly and indirectly. You slash its budget and instantly add an extra 5 to 10 million jobless people, possibly more. Slashing the rest of the government budget would cause similar harm, either by directly causing unemployment or by eliminating the meager social services that keep many poor alive. It would be an economic and social disaster that would end this country, permanently.

The only solution is to eliminate the corruption and inefficiencies in government and stem the tide of wealth redistribution towards the ultra wealthy.

[DJ]

You could redirect the budget into something more useful, like infrastructure development.

[Nadaka]

You could redirect the budget into something more useful, like infrastructure development.

You mean like the US Army Core of Engineers?

[DJ]

Which gets the majority of the military budget, right? Which is obvious from America's excellent railway and highway system that makes Germany look like a 3rd world country.

[Immortal]

I have written a large comment but don't want to interrupt your current topic.

DJ I assume your comment on America's railway and highway is sarcastic?

[Leafsnail]

As far as I can tell, some 3m people are in the US military (1.5m serving, 1.5m in reserve).  With its budget of $533.8 billion, that's some $200,000 per job.  Even if we assume that there's one civilian job created for every service job, that's still $100,000 spent per job.  There are probably more efficient ways to spend it.

[DJ]

I'm pretty sure you could get more than 1:1 jobs, if you count jobs created in private sector by increased demand for construction materials.

And then there's lowering costs for private businesses by providing cheaper transport and power, which means they can afford more employees.

[Immortal]

There is a large amount of writing under here if you care to read. At least watch the short video that I've included. Its every so slightly off topic. More of a sustainability twist I'd say. Still absolutely relevant. Sorry to just kind of drop this into the current conversation..

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XQIxr4gRQM - Short
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8WBiTnBwSWc - Long
I'd like to preface that I'm not from the USA, and usually I tend to have a negative view of the general public and how their economy functions.
One thing I agree with though is that we need a world power, I personally would prefer the upper class of the European countries to be the power, but I prefer the United States over China.

I'm going to just kind of give a broad statement, due to the fact this topic has covered a ton of it so no real focus here other then how screwed we are if we don't change things soon.

What we need to do is remodel our economic system and how all countries rate themselves. How do we rate ourselves? Well we used GDP usually. Question though. How do we calculate GDP? Is it money created? No. Money taken from other countries through exports? No. It certainly doesn't use the Dwarf Fortress system.. GDP is counted every time money changes hands, its not actual wealth, its just how fast money is moving. The only way to increase money moving currently, is to increase your population.. This is in my eyes a flawed system. We need to regulate the world, I would go as far to say we need a planned economy. Though that is different from a communist government.. So please don't panic when I mention the word planned economy. We need it, and soon it will be our only option capable of fixing our current trend. We have 7 000 000 000 people and counting on earth. We cannot sustain that.. Especially if our economies continue the rate they are, where are we going to the next 3 000 000 000 in 10 years? China? Nope, their already pretty full. Did you know that in British Columbia, Canada you can detect an increase of air pollutants traceable back to the coal power plants of China.

Our governments do not run us, we are supposed to run out governments, and currently in the USA the government and the politician all scratching each others back with the oil companies and car companies and whoever else are the ones running that government which is running the people. Yes I know everyone has heard that statement beat to death but it is true. It needs to be fixed. The general public are just consumers, the highly educated and successful people of that country are rich because they use the working men of the country for their income. The lower/middle class have bought into an advertised life, you do not need to buy all those fancy things. I personally own a few material things, my nice laptop, my old watches, clothes, a few suits. I own these not because of how they represent me, but because I enjoy what they are in their own. The laptop for school, CAD and programming, the old watches because I love engineering. The suits are for job interviews, so yes they buy into the societal consumerist views. Though the suits are not name brand, I bought them from a cheap store, I picked nice full cotton ones for the feel and look of the suits texture, they looked nice. I do not care it wasn't designed by some stupid designer guy somewhere making money off of idiots who actually pay for the full thing.

Anyways I digress, the thing is the American economy is built on exploiting the lower/middle class and a total consumerist population. The total population is to blame also they are not resisting this crap they are fed through adds on television and media. They are absolutely happy to own that new Gucci purse. My girlfriend bought me a real Gucci wallet, I was obviously grateful for the present and the thought, its a nice wallet that suits me. I was sad when I found the price of a 4" x 5" piece of leather designed to hold my cash and a cards.

The USA is not run by the people, its run by a relatively small group (compared to USA population) of people. Continuing on a previous statement, the country is so tied to its energy production(oil) through the back door monetary trades and hand offs by the politicians. You think you are voting in an amazing president? Your votes don't really count. The government has its own agenda. You think the President has a large amount of power? He ain't have shit. To pass bills he has to fight with his own cabinet he has to fight with the people who he now owes favours to. You are voting in the party, not the man. I here all to often where I live and how I see people say how great so and so is, well its not him..

To prove the tie of the government to its oil consider this. The USA had an electric car in 1996 made by GM, but it was closed, it had successful sales. Please go watch the movie "Who killed the electric car", its good and insightful, the problems the movies points out are still very prevalent. It gives the info and connects the politicians who passed the bill which killed the electric car initiative to the oil companies.

Now consider this, if we continue to burn our hydrocarbon fuels how are we going to do anything? Obviously we have no electric cargo ships.. We have no electric airbuses. The world needs to plan and prepare for the shock it will endure and it must be planned ahead of time and we must be ready for it. A company does not develop these "green" alternatives unless its profitable. It will become profitable soon, and within our lifetimes. If it doesn't affect you, your children will feel it. They will have to deal with the garbage we have left in the waste lands and the lack of materials. Did you know we are running out of Lithium? Good-bye efficient battery technology. We are also running out of helium and potassium. If we want to continue our growth rate we need potassium to feed our population. We also need to remove the economy when it comes to food. Did you know almost a third of the worlds food production isn't eaten? Yet it consumes energy, resources to be made. Why? Because of the economy. Look it up, this post is way to long and I'm not explaining it. Also space flight? Good luck getting their without hydrocarbons. Before you comment on that I know about hybrid hydrogen-oxygen rockets. Did you know it also takes 3 times the total energy used in production of an equivalent amount of fossil fuels to make it?

Anyways I needed to post that, this board was angering me. I know many of you agree on this, but I wanted to bring this together and kinda point it in a different direction. How does OWS tie to this? Meh, mostly because they are not pushing in the right direction, nor are they very organized. Our society is tearing into two parts, the middle class is getting closer to lower and the upper-middle class is moving towards upper. Welcome to social stratification.. I hope OWS starts to take real action, talking only does so much. They need to start moving in the proper channels, go against the government and change it. I know they are building a population base to stand on and its good. Hopefully though it begins to start taking meaningful direction, because currently its a slight jokes..

DJ - I fully agree, how about a hydrogen fuel network and removing power lines and fossil factories while moving clean energy production directly into cities. I assume by your comment and in the case others aren't, that around 7-9% of power production is lost in transmission. That adds ups when we are giving power to 7 billion people.

[ECrownofFire]

I'm pretty sure you could get more than 1:1 jobs, if you count jobs created in private sector by increased demand for construction materials.

And then there's lowering costs for private businesses by providing cheaper transport and power, which means they can afford more employees.

Just going to say here that the VAST majority of employees and money that the US spends is on private contractors that they overpay (mostly because the government is willing to do so).

[DJ]

Not all private contractors are the same. Construction involves more jobs than maintaining an army.

And, you know, blowing money on dams and highways actually leaves something useful behind.