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Author Topic: Occupying Wallstreet  (Read 294356 times)

ECrownofFire

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2505 on: December 23, 2011, 07:46:57 am »

Hahahahahaha, as if something could save your economy now. They won't be any menial job for them as everything relocated in Asia, and you're in a TON of debt, so there is no chance of regrowth.
If OWS doesn't bring a change, you're dead.
Simply slashing the massive military budget (and the federal budget in general) would do wonders. But no, we have to "FIGHT THE TERRORISTS!" in every fucking country on Earth.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2506 on: December 23, 2011, 07:50:49 am »

Although, to a certain extent there's a question of how good our "economy" can even get with the environment we have now. A lot of our success and prosperity is based on, quite simply, unsustainable foundations. The economy isn't even doing that bad! Unemployment is high, but a great many businesses seem to actually be making more profit now than they were five years ago.

That's not the sign of a struggling economy - that's the sign of an economy that has decided it no longer has a use for its labor surplus.

ECrownofFire:
The military budget is a big part of what keeps a huge portion of the USA's otherwise not terribly employable young folk and a large portion of engineers employed. You think we have unemployment problems NOW? Watch what happens when you cut the military.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2011, 07:52:21 am by GlyphGryph »
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Phmcw

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2507 on: December 23, 2011, 08:10:33 am »

@GlyphGlyph : 1) how much many of these business mainly work abroad? Third sector is great and all, but real value lie in the first and second one. I can't believe that we let an Indian businessman buy all of our steel production for instance , the person responsible for this decision should be tried for treason

2) It's still money pissed in the wind, you could as well distribute it in the street : that army will force you to use it or die bearing its weight. It's burning money like there's no tomorrow.

@Ecrownoffire : terrorism is a bad excuse, and not at all the main reason, which is that the peoples that sell weapons hold a fair share of congress.
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Lagslayer

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2508 on: December 23, 2011, 09:13:19 am »

Slashing the military budget is not the best idea. I'm not going to argue that it could stand some trimming here and there for the sake of efficiency. I am, however, going to argue that the world needs a police force. If the US suddenly pulls back a lot of that responsibility, then someone else is going to have to pick up the slack. That means if you don't live in the US, expect your military spending to go way up. That or just bow to a new power that will fill the power vacuum. I'm sure you'd love Chinese dominance so much better. Don't even start on that UN thing. Most countries can barely keep themselves running properly, let alone trying to bring everyone together under one banner.

All the problems with the economy and governments are the result of basic human response (they are just made up of people, their interactions, and their ideas). If we cannot compensate for this somehow, all of this will inevitably crop up again. Attack the problem at it's source, don't just cover up the symptoms. The issues closer to the end result or farther away from the root cause that you address is increasingly superficial.

It's not just the leaders' fault for corralling people to their demise, but also the fault of the people for not paying attention or just not caring. There's no compensating for willful ignorance.

Phmcw

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2509 on: December 23, 2011, 09:29:36 am »

A police force without laws is just a bunch of armed thugs. So before calling yourself a world police, respect international laws, which you don't do. Who are you protecting? Europe? It's the second force in the world. African countries? Good one! Japan? Well maybe, but you don't need a quarter of your current budget for that. South American countries? From who? Your oil supplies? Yeah, that one I grant you, but protecting your own interest is not exactly policing the world. Beside Saudi Arabia isn't exactly a model of anything.
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In bug news, the zombies in a necromancer's tower became suspicious after the necromancer failed to age and he fled into the hills.

Nadaka

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2510 on: December 23, 2011, 11:32:37 am »

Hahahahahaha, as if something could save your economy now. They won't be any menial job for them as everything relocated in Asia, and you're in a TON of debt, so there is no chance of regrowth.
If OWS doesn't bring a change, you're dead.
Simply slashing the massive military budget (and the federal budget in general) would do wonders. But no, we have to "FIGHT THE TERRORISTS!" in every fucking country on Earth.

Uh... No, that is ridiculous. That is as ridiculous as saying that taking a shotgun blast to the head can cure a migraine. Slashing the military budget will unquestionably harm the US economy. The military employs a lot of people directly and indirectly. You slash its budget and instantly add an extra 5 to 10 million jobless people, possibly more. Slashing the rest of the government budget would cause similar harm, either by directly causing unemployment or by eliminating the meager social services that keep many poor alive. It would be an economic and social disaster that would end this country, permanently.

The only solution is to eliminate the corruption and inefficiencies in government and stem the tide of wealth redistribution towards the ultra wealthy.
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DJ

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2511 on: December 23, 2011, 11:37:07 am »

You could redirect the budget into something more useful, like infrastructure development.
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Nadaka

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2512 on: December 23, 2011, 11:39:39 am »

You could redirect the budget into something more useful, like infrastructure development.

You mean like the US Army Core of Engineers?
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Take me out to the black, tell them I ain't comin' back...
I don't care cause I'm still free, you can't take the sky from me...

I turned myself into a monster, to fight against the monsters of the world.

DJ

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2513 on: December 23, 2011, 11:40:54 am »

Which gets the majority of the military budget, right? Which is obvious from America's excellent railway and highway system that makes Germany look like a 3rd world country.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2011, 11:42:55 am by DJ »
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Immortal

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2514 on: December 23, 2011, 11:44:19 am »

I have written a large comment but don't want to interrupt your current topic.

DJ I assume your comment on America's railway and highway is sarcastic?
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Leafsnail

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2515 on: December 23, 2011, 11:47:40 am »

As far as I can tell, some 3m people are in the US military (1.5m serving, 1.5m in reserve).  With its budget of $533.8 billion, that's some $200,000 per job.  Even if we assume that there's one civilian job created for every service job, that's still $100,000 spent per job.  There are probably more efficient ways to spend it.
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DJ

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2516 on: December 23, 2011, 11:57:17 am »

I'm pretty sure you could get more than 1:1 jobs, if you count jobs created in private sector by increased demand for construction materials.

And then there's lowering costs for private businesses by providing cheaper transport and power, which means they can afford more employees.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2011, 11:59:09 am by DJ »
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Immortal

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2517 on: December 23, 2011, 12:00:00 pm »

There is a large amount of writing under here if you care to read. At least watch the short video that I've included. Its every so slightly off topic. More of a sustainability twist I'd say. Still absolutely relevant. Sorry to just kind of drop this into the current conversation..

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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ECrownofFire

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2518 on: December 23, 2011, 12:06:19 pm »

I'm pretty sure you could get more than 1:1 jobs, if you count jobs created in private sector by increased demand for construction materials.

And then there's lowering costs for private businesses by providing cheaper transport and power, which means they can afford more employees.
Just going to say here that the VAST majority of employees and money that the US spends is on private contractors that they overpay (mostly because the government is willing to do so).
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DJ

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2519 on: December 23, 2011, 12:09:42 pm »

Not all private contractors are the same. Construction involves more jobs than maintaining an army.

And, you know, blowing money on dams and highways actually leaves something useful behind.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2011, 12:14:02 pm by DJ »
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Urist, President has immigrated to your fortress!
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Cue magma.
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