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Author Topic: Occupying Wallstreet  (Read 296559 times)

mainiac

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2295 on: December 14, 2011, 12:23:42 am »

Way to get the joke.
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Itnetlolor

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2296 on: December 14, 2011, 01:51:01 am »

A sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, and pretty much all magic fiction except Harry Potter boils down to LOTR rip-offs and LOTR is about feudal societies.  So we can look forward to a future of either:

1) Feudalism
2) The rich decide they are a master race so they subvert the government then slowly exterminate or enslave the rest of us

Clearly we are on path two right now and I for one don't like it.  Time for Aqizzer to show up and tell us how great feudalism is an how to make it work for us.
Why don't I just post a link to the old thread instead?

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=60828.0

Montague

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2297 on: December 14, 2011, 03:41:25 am »

Fuedalism? Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic and magic is the only think that'd make Communism work. Why don't we wait until urm, computing singularity or whatever and give Marx's ideas another go?

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lordcooper

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2298 on: December 14, 2011, 04:04:27 am »

Communism != Marxism
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Aqizzar

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2299 on: December 14, 2011, 04:43:10 am »

1) Feudalism
2) The rich decide they are a master race so they subvert the government then slowly exterminate or enslave the rest of us

Clearly we are on path two right now and I for one don't like it.  Time for Aqizzer to show up and tell us how great feudalism is an how to make it work for us.
Why don't I just post a link to the old thread instead?

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=60828.0

I cannot believe people remember this.  Kinda does it an injustice to know the thread lives on in Roleplaying now, instead of a sardonic counterpoint to what I remember being a very argumentative summer.  Just in case nobody got the joke.

It doesn't say much good that it takes people saying my name to get me to post in a thread I should be interested in, but the line of conversation has taken a turn for the seriously weird over the last few pages.  A lot of arguing about Gernsback-style futurism that has nothing to do with real world economics or anything actually happening.

So, has the thread already come and gone with Occupy Our Homes?  This is significant, both because it's a much more implicit act of breaking the law, but is also a direct echo of some seriously massive (and often violent) protests in the 1930s against foreclosures and banking practices.  I'm curious to see how long it lasts before it prompts a concerted governmental response.
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Luke_Prowler

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2300 on: December 14, 2011, 06:11:33 am »

Hey, you guys remember Occupy the Ports?
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Heron TSG

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2301 on: December 14, 2011, 08:46:41 am »

Yeah, Occupy the Ports wasn't a good idea. Occupy Our Homes on the other hand is a great idea. I've been taking shifts in a house in my hometown, actually.
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Nadaka

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2302 on: December 15, 2011, 12:34:46 pm »

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2011/10/07/do-occupy-wall-street-protests-represent-your-views-economy/

Its a poll, and despite being a fox news poll, there are actually ~40% people responding in favor of OWS. Feel free to submit your vote.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2303 on: December 15, 2011, 06:37:59 pm »

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Truean

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2304 on: December 15, 2011, 09:42:38 pm »

The Return of Debtor's Prisons

That's insane. I do something similar to that, but nowhere even close to as bad. I sometimes collect debts under the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act. I make sure to get service on the person and have a process server track them the hell down if need be. They knew what's going on with me. Winning a lawsuit is just the beginning; then you have to collect the judgment via garnishment or other means. One way of doing that is a Debtor's Exam, where I have the court summon the person after they've lost the suit and force them to tell me where they have money if they have any. If the person fails to appear, then I have a capias warrant issued for their arrest. This means if they are arrested or pulled over for a different thing and the officer pulls up their record, then they will arrest them for contempt of court (not showing up when called).

The "5 months," and "some people paying the city to jail them," parts are the insane parts of that. I once had a guy who was pulled over and arrested for something else at about 10PM who spent the night in jail for this. I came down the next morning to do the debtor's exam in the cell with a deputy present, but that's the longest I've heard of anyone being detained like that. He was pissed that he ended up spending the night in jail, but I sent him regular mail, then certified mail, then had a process server track him the hell down, once for the lawsuit and then again for the garnishment.... He knew.

This is quite sad really and I'd say this process is being abused if even half the things said in that article are true. I took that attorney oath seriously and do everything I can to avoid abuse of the legal process. It saddens me that it is all too often abused and this might be an example of that. :(

It pisses me off when attorneys abuse process.

"Washington state's House of Representatives voted unanamously in March to require debt collection companies to provide proof that borrowers had been notified about lawsuits before judges could issue an arrest warrant. " ~ That's a start.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2011, 09:49:32 pm by Truean »
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Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

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Aqizzar

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2305 on: December 15, 2011, 09:49:22 pm »

"Washington state's House of Representatives voted unanamously in March to require debt collection companies to provide proof that borrowers had been notified about lawsuits before judges could issue an arrest warrant. " ~ That's a start.

Yeah, except that "we put it in the mail" is all the "proof" required.  It's legally impossible to prove that somebody received a notice, since they can just say they didn't.  So the legal standard of proof of notification is whether the creditor claims they sense one.

The much more worrying part isn't the creditors, it's the apparent rash of people being arrested because they missed a court summons they didn't know about.  I've had that one myself before, and that's the kind of thing that'll make you into a paranoid revolutionary.  Because you know who's in charge of making sure the courthouse follows the rules?  Nobody.  You know what recourse you have to prove you didn't receive a summons?  None.  None at all.
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Truean

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2306 on: December 15, 2011, 09:58:50 pm »

"Washington state's House of Representatives voted unanamously in March to require debt collection companies to provide proof that borrowers had been notified about lawsuits before judges could issue an arrest warrant. " ~ That's a start.

Yeah, except that "we put it in the mail" is all the "proof" required.  It's legally impossible to prove that somebody received a notice, since they can just say they didn't.  So the legal standard of proof of notification is whether the creditor claims they sense one.

The much more worrying part isn't the creditors, it's the apparent rash of people being arrested because they missed a court summons they didn't know about.  I've had that one myself before, and that's the kind of thing that'll make you into a paranoid revolutionary.  Because you know who's in charge of making sure the courthouse follows the rules?  Nobody.  You know what recourse you have to prove you didn't receive a summons?  None.  None at all.

A.) It's still a start. The worst abusers of this process don't even send anything out, at all.

B.) It doesn't have to be that way. I make it a point to attach the regular mail receipt, the certified mail receipt, the process server's affidavit and the picture of the guy I have the process  server take with his cell phone before I do this. The process server takes the picture to verify that he both actually has the right person and that he actually handed it to that person. It COULD be done ethically for a reasonable cost.

C.) Actually, under rule 60(B), there is a defense to not getting service that can void the entire judgment. I've done it:
I have all the research for Ohio too, but damn it if I'm not breaking the 40 K limit on this thing again.... [grumble grumble mumble]

Disclaimer: Do not attempt to use this as legal advice: a.) It only speaks to Ohio Law, b.) There are lots of ways to screw up a legal matter if you don't know EXACTLY what you're doing. If you need legal help, please seek out an attorney licensed in your area.
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The real problem is, it took me hours to look all that crap up and no one is going to pay a lawyer to do this for them. This is another reason why I'd like to do that thing I mentioned where I just represent people like an insurance policy for a small monthly fee one day. This sort of challenge is too expensive to pay for a la carte. I personally would love to kick the shit out of people who abuse this process, but it isn't monetarily feasible to do it in the traditional fee pay structure for attorneys.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2011, 10:16:28 pm by Truean »
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Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

Please don't quote me.

Frumple

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2307 on: December 15, 2011, 10:03:14 pm »

C.) Actually, under rule 60(B), there is a defense to not getting service that can void the entire judgment. I've done it:
I have all the research for Ohio too, but damn it if I'm not breaking the 40 K limit on this thing again.... [grumble grumble mumble]

Pastebin? S'helpful for stuff like that. Google docs too, I guess.
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Truean

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2308 on: December 15, 2011, 10:07:29 pm »

C.) Actually, under rule 60(B), there is a defense to not getting service that can void the entire judgment. I've done it:
I have all the research for Ohio too, but damn it if I'm not breaking the 40 K limit on this thing again.... [grumble grumble mumble]

Pastebin? S'helpful for stuff like that. Google docs too, I guess.

I gave a little but there are other concerns. a.) If an attorney who represents himself has a fool for a client, then what does a layman have? If I give too much some layman will come along, think "that's all I need to know about it," try to represent themselves and invariably screw something up because they simply aren't a lawyer and don't know the court system; b.) I literally spent HOURS researching all that crap and if I ever want to pay back my student loans, I'm gonna have to charge people for it.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2011, 10:16:48 pm by Truean »
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The kinda human wreckage that you love

Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

Please don't quote me.

Frumple

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2309 on: December 15, 2011, 10:39:14 pm »

More th'40k limit mention than anything else, heh. Not in ohio, so other than idle curiosity I don't terribly care (about the particulars, in this case, the legalese). Though I do mean 'don't terribly care' in the most, uh. Kind? Of ways. Something like that. Benevolent disinterest? Terrible respect for th'work involved (Law research possibly one of the few things more tedious than philosophy research, from what I understand :P), but other than looking at it, th'stuff doesn't do much for me.

Anyway, [/offtopic] from me~
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