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Author Topic: Occupying Wallstreet  (Read 297278 times)

Phmcw

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1965 on: November 29, 2011, 03:28:11 pm »

Well, what European Socialists parties evolved into, for once, and a syncretism of left wing idea applied to a capitalist society.
But to be fair, it's not very well structured, and doesn't have any prominent leader. It's no longer historical socialism, for sure, but I couldn't tell you what it is. I think the party who'll manage to get a left wing movement into shape in Europe will reap quite a lot of voices.
He'll have to create a convincing ideology first, though.
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Aqizzar

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1966 on: November 29, 2011, 04:13:08 pm »

Welp, this is interesting.  Representative Ted Deutch of Florida (Democrat) has introduced to the House a joint resolution for a constitutional amendment - Outlawing Corporate Cash Undermining the Public Interest in our Elections and Democracy Amendment.  Yeah, he actually called it OCCUPIED.

While I think it's kind of a crass personal publicity stunt, it does mark at interesting turning point.  The "Occupy" business (yes, I will continue referring to it in condescending quote marks, because that's who I am) has reached the floor of Congress in name.  Obviously, this isn't going to go anywhere because it's a damn amendment, but it's certainly noteworthy.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1967 on: November 29, 2011, 04:37:37 pm »

Publicity stunt or no, he shouldn't have introduced it to the House. He should have tried to stir up the Article V alternate amendment pathway by getting state legislatures to vote on it.

Although, nothing is really preventing him from doing both at once, but that's what I'd do.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1968 on: November 29, 2011, 04:45:14 pm »

Since its opposing a supreme court ruling, and amendment is unfortunately the only way to go here.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1969 on: November 29, 2011, 04:54:27 pm »

Not so, the Supreme Court could overturn their own ruling.

And don't say it isn't possible, because Supreme Court has done uncountable about-faces on its rulings in the past, and could do so again. Hell, sometimes even the very same justices will be the ones overturning a ruling they previously supported.
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Nadaka

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1970 on: November 29, 2011, 04:55:21 pm »

Its something I generally like. But I am not certain how it will affect political advocacy organizations, because they are ALSO run as corporations.
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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1971 on: November 29, 2011, 05:21:56 pm »

And how, pray tell, does a rep go about overturning a supreme court ruling?
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SalmonGod

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1972 on: November 29, 2011, 05:24:19 pm »

No. Just No. The US supported capitalism, the USSR supported communism. Freedom of the society didn't matter to either side.

Wow... just wow.  The USA, land of the free, protector of the free world, icon of democracy, land of the fair shake, didn't care about freedom?  Guess you knew more about the cold war then JFK.

We're lucky we had JFK at that time, or this might have happened.  There was massive push from many powerful people within U.S. power structures during that period to do pretty much every evil thing imaginable, including terrorist acts against their own people, and there was no key opposition through the hierarchy of accountability until the very last single person.
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Phmcw

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1973 on: November 29, 2011, 05:36:33 pm »

And, you may not have noticed, but... he's been a little bit dead lately. And whoever did it it sure wasn't the USSR.
When his brother took up the challenge, there has been charitable people that gave him a one way ticket for visiting his sibling, too.
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nenjin

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1974 on: November 29, 2011, 05:55:34 pm »

Kennedy was virtually alone within his own government in how he felt about Vietnam, the Russians and Cuba and his own administration acted without his approval, sometimes specifically to make him look bad but usually to countermand an order he'd given. It took great personal courage to use his power as president to stop his own people from turning parts of the US into smoking, irradiated craters. 

And he paid the price for it. I wonder what something like that would look like today. I suppose we'd have to wait for Iran to actually have missiles raised up and ready to fire to really know. Can you imagine today, an American president secretly corresponding with the Ayatollah or Ahmadinejad to avoid a nuclear war, and how half of America and the American government would react to that news?
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Sheb

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1975 on: November 29, 2011, 06:01:01 pm »

Mainac, you should stop believing in propaganda. Ths USSR also claimed to be working for the masses, the freedom of the people oppressed by capitalism.
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Kogan Loloklam

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1976 on: November 29, 2011, 06:12:18 pm »

And in all honesty, asking for a "definition" for such a broad concept isn't terribly useful. It would be like attempting to offer up a 'definition' of "football" or "democracy" or " fiscal responsibility" or "the revolutionary war".

Spoiler: football (click to show/hide)
Interesting to note, dictionary.com does not recognize the codeword of the US nuclear briefcase, which is called the Football. This is why there is always room for other sources and other definitions.

Spoiler: democracy (click to show/hide)


fiscal responsibility is a phrase, not a word. Here are the component words though:
Spoiler: fiscal (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: responsibility (click to show/hide)
Combining Definition of Fiscal #2 plus Definition of responsibility #1 you get:
the state or fact of being responsible of or pertaining to financial matters in general.
Which seems to me to be a pretty solid definition of fiscal responsibility.

Same problem with the Revolutionary War as with Fiscal Responsibility, however Dictionary.com actually allowed the full thing, so here's it's Definition:
Spoiler: Revolutionary War (click to show/hide)

Turns out all of these CAN be defined, and pretty accurately. It might not explain the emotional impact of a game in which two opposing teams of 11 players each defend goals at opposite ends of a field having goal posts at each end, with points being scored chiefly by carrying the ball across the opponent's goal line and by place-kicking or drop-kicking the ball over the crossbar between the opponent's goal posts, but at least when you see that particular activity, you can say "Hey, that's football!"

The same with Socialism. People love to try to complicate a very simple thing to try to hide what is the bottom line of the issue.

Capitalism: Property owned by individuals
Socialism: Property owned by groups
Communism: Property owned by all

It's not hard to grasp, and when you look at the ideals held by self proclaimed capitalists, socialists, or communists, you will generally see they are going for whatever type they have. It's only when you see people labeled something they aren't that it gets confusing at all.


Phmcw, Just because someone believes in socialism doesn't mean that is the extent of their views. You can't say "That Definition is Outdated" just because some organizations that advocate that also advocate other views as well. Also, as was pointed out, an organization can move away from what they once were and still retain their name. I believe that real socialists will want Socialism though. Socialism isn't a bad idea on paper. In fact, we already take some of it in our "capitalist" society. Take, for example, a Public Park. This is land owned by the local community, and is therefore an example of the deep root that Socialism has in the USA. It's ridiculous to argue it shouldn't exist, but it IS an example of socialism. Public roads, same thing. More dramatic example would be power plants owned by Municipalities though. This differs from Government-owned institutions, which are communistic aspects, as they are owned by "all", instead of the local community. Still, localized examples of each system aren't bad, what is bad is wholesale adoption of any of those systems. We currently have a capitalist form of governance, and I think it's ultimately very beneficial. The problem is that when you start getting past the point where you are able to support your family, I think you start having an obligation to the community to provide opportunity for others to do so as well. Some people do, some don't. Those that don't currently get the greatest rewards in our society, hence why our society is the way it is.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1977 on: November 29, 2011, 07:33:40 pm »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Criptfeind

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1978 on: November 29, 2011, 08:24:16 pm »

I want to point out that was just about the vaguest use of the word group I have ever seen.
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mainiac

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1979 on: November 29, 2011, 08:58:37 pm »

Mainac, you should stop believing in propaganda. Ths USSR also claimed to be working for the masses, the freedom of the people oppressed by capitalism.

So the existance of the free world was propoganda?  I guess somebody should go tell the Brits, French, West Germans, Canadians, Italians, Danes, Norwegians, Swedes, Portoguese, Israelis, Mexicans, Japanese, Aussies, Kiwis, Indians, Swiss, Turks, Irish, Dutch, Belgians Greeks and Americans that all those decades of uninterupted elections they were having during the cold war didn't count.  Because apparently the cold war was just about capatalism vs. socialism and nothing else.  Likewise we were foolish to imagine that democracies emerged in places like Indonesia, Taiwan, South Korea, Brazil, Argentina, South Africa and so forth.

Likewise, it must just be a myth that the socialist parties ran cold war era governments in Britain, France, Germany, Canada, Sweden, etc.  Complete with the nationalization of many industries.  It would be insane to think that socialized medicine is the dominant form of healthcare provision in the world today because we all know that's impossible since the US won the cold war.  That would be as crazy as if in the US the government currently paid for about 40% of healthcare provided.

No, that's all nutso.  The cold war was capitalism vs. communism and nothing more.  Democracy played no part in it.

But because I'm so silly and don't know anything about the cold war, do me a favor and remind me... how many free elections happened in the soviet block during the cold war?  I'm struggling to remember the number.
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