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Author Topic: Occupying Wallstreet  (Read 294358 times)

SalmonGod

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1770 on: November 22, 2011, 08:58:17 pm »

Including those who were replying with those opinions that SalmonGod was thinking?
It's the internet Dsarker. People are bound to voice those kind of ideas if they are totally anonymous, be they trolling or legitimate. Such smug dismissals are a result of human psychology, and the distance provided by the internet provides for this. It's not reality.

As a term implying some broad consistency, there would be no debate if human psychology were to blame.  I think it's more about our culture, and these comments are in fact the reality of it, being completely uninhibited and unfiltered thought expression.
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Zangi

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1771 on: November 22, 2011, 09:50:20 pm »

Protests are only hostile environments cause of unilateral police action...
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Itnetlolor

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1772 on: November 22, 2011, 09:55:09 pm »

My dad once marinaded a steak in Ultra-Death sauce (1,100,000 scovilles apparently), because he is an idiot. Eating it was never on the table, the fumes when he tried to cook it basically pepper-sprayed the kitchen and most of the house.
Oh you lightweights. I would best advise slicing that, dehydrating it, and selling it as nuclear-flavored beef jerky. I'd eat it. I've got a lead stomach. You could turn up one hell of a profit, provided you can find customers up to the challenge.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2011, 09:57:04 pm by Itnetlolor »
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SalmonGod

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1773 on: November 22, 2011, 11:15:22 pm »

So... pepper spray... been running around trying to find solid info on it, which is proving very difficult.

What I have discovered is that there is a very wide variety of pepper sprays out there of varying intensity.  The stuff police use tends to be around the 5 mil scoville range, while consumer defense varieties tend to be around 2 mil scovilles.  Oleoresin Capiscum is only a minor component (from 10-15% it looks like), with the rest being composed of other stuff that enhances the effects (I've seen claims that the active ingredients in mace and tear gas are often mixed in and alcohol is commonly cited also) or controls the delivery of the spray (propellants/aerosols of questionable toxicity and water or oil based solutions, which is significant because the oil-based ones are incredibly difficult to flush off the skin).  I've even seen claims that it's as bad or worse than the pepper sprays sold commercially as bear repellent, which at least one vendor for Police Magnum OC Spray boasts openly on their website.

The claims about immediate health effects and dangers seem to be pretty consistent (well outlined here and here).  The vast majority of the time, there are no long-term health effects or deaths... but they do happen and the experience is still torturously painful, so it's something that should be used very responsibly.

In summary:

It causes temporary blindness (lasting up to ~30 minutes), and usually (almost definitely for people who have never been sprayed before) causes the eyes to swell shut.  Repeated exposures can cause permanent eye damage.  Police have been caught in the past knowingly causing this kind of damage to prisoners, while using the stuff as a torture device.  The most chilling case I've seen is from 1999 when police dipped q-tips into pepper spray solution and repeatedly touched it directly to the eyes of anti-logging protesters, which prompted the ACLU to file a suit to try and make the stuff illegal.

It causes immediate swelling of mucous membranes, and will cause skin to blister and rash after prolonged exposure with burns that I've seen reports of lasting over a week.  Think about that when you see people sprayed and then dragged off in cuffs to sit for hours before processing and treatment.  It also severely aggravates pre-existing forms of dermatitis, which raises alarms for me.  Dermatitis has led directly to both of my MRSA infections, and I have a very hard time controlling it already.

The really dangerous part is when it gets directly into the nose, throat, or lungs.  Besides the tissue damage, the inflammation causes difficulty breathing and swallowing.  This has been linked to deaths by dozens of people with asthma or heart conditions at the hands of police.  The literature surrounding this stuff even repeatedly warns that it's dangerous to inhale or swallow, but this is a warning that seems widely ignored.

And then there are allergies.  I've seen very little description of what this entails, other than 'some people can have allergic reactions to components of the spray, and it's bad when that happens.'

It's also been accused in some medical literature of being carcinogenic, and is classified as a chemical weapon banned for use in war by the Geneva Convention.

For more in-depth information and contrast, I found both academic and government contracted research papers on the subject.

And finally, there has been shady business involved in the legality of the substance.

Quote from: Wikipedia
The head of the FBI's Less-Than-Lethal Weapons Program at the time of the 1991 study, Special Agent Thomas W. W. Ward, was fired by the FBI and was sentenced to two months in prison for receiving payments from a peppergas manufacturer while conducting and authoring the FBI study that eventually approved pepper spray for FBI use.[9][12][13] Prosecutors said that from December 1989 through 1990, Ward received about $5,000 a month for a total of $57,500, from Luckey Police Products, a Fort Lauderdale, Florida-based company that was a major producer and supplier of pepper spray. The payments were paid through a Florida company owned by Ward's wife.[14]

Edit:  A collection of pepper spray cop meme images.  So many of these are totally ridiculous, though some of them are pretty good.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2011, 11:40:13 pm by SalmonGod »
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Kogan Loloklam

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1774 on: November 23, 2011, 12:33:03 am »

These are all strong reasons to arm the protestors with Pepper Spray and swim goggles.

If anyone here intends to join a protest in any of these nasty cities, here is three simple things you can get to make you much more resistant for common attacks.

1) Swim Goggles.
Calibration: You should suck in through your nose periodically to ensure they have a vacuum on your face. You also want the strap to put a little pressure on your face, but not so much as to become uncomfortable. You probably want to get anti-fog gel. Dive shops will sell what you are looking for. If your vacuum loses air over time, they may have a leak. You should be able to put your face underwater for 30 minutes without getting much fluid in them. If you have a leak, they will obviously be less effective. DO NOT BREATHE OUT THROUGH YOUR NOSE WITH THESE! It will break the seal, which may allow gas or fluids into the space.
If you wear a bandana and shades over this, depending on the mask you get, it may be invisible to the police.
2) Bandana.
This is a staple of protestors and rebels. Not only does it allow anonymity, but you can pull it up over your face quickly for a makeshift gas mask. This will not be very effective unless soaked in fluid. I've heard vinegar or Lime Juice is best. Either way, you should ALWAYS wear one of these in protests, even if not immediately around your face. If you are trapped in a crowd and sprays of Pepper spray start up, it can be difficult to run away immediately. A cloth you can cover your whole face with during the attack can prevent great harm.
3) Bottles of Milk and Lime Juice and a satchel of baking soda.
The Lime Juice is to refresh or initialize your "Gas Mask Bandana". The milk makes a good "first response" agent to just about any chemical attack you can experience from law enforcement, including pepper spray. Baking Soda is also a good choice to neutralize oil-based chemicals like Pepper Spray. Bonus: If you carry around a satchel of Baking soda and a squeezable bottle of Lime Juice, you can spray Lime Juice and then throw a handful of baking Soda to them for psychological effects. This can also ruin visibility for visors and masks. I do not actually recommend this for rather obvious reasons. You can also make a makeshift Grenade with this and a bit of trash from the street. Again, not recommended.
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lordcooper

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1775 on: November 23, 2011, 12:54:50 am »

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Heron TSG

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1776 on: November 23, 2011, 01:05:05 am »

Well gee, why was that woman at a protest? Doesn't she know there are police out there!?

I hate what those people did 'in the name of protecting people'. Namely hurting them.
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alway

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1777 on: November 23, 2011, 01:05:26 am »

@salmon: As for asthma, from what I read of the UC Davis spraying, there was a student who had an asthma attack resulting from the pepper spray.
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Nadaka

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1778 on: November 23, 2011, 01:21:34 am »

Wasn't one of the allegations that an officer forced open someones mouth and sprayed it down their throat? Or was that in a different city?

Considering the swelling if it got in the lungs, that would be attempted murder...
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SalmonGod

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1779 on: November 23, 2011, 01:37:25 am »

Wasn't one of the allegations that an officer forced open someones mouth and sprayed it down their throat? Or was that in a different city?

Considering the swelling if it got in the lungs, that would be attempted murder...

I've heard that one a lot.  I'm not sure if it's true.  I've watched a bunch of different videos showing the event from different points of view looking for that specific act, and haven't seen it... but the videos are all rather chaotic after the spraying begins and it has been repeated a lot by people who were there.

Kogan: a bandana, goggles, and a couple bottles of water are the bare minimum of gear I would take to any large protest event.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2011, 01:43:40 am by SalmonGod »
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Kogan Loloklam

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1780 on: November 23, 2011, 02:06:30 am »

Salmon, Not water.

Water for your thirst yes, but as a useful tool? No. Water spreads chemical agents without taking ANY sting off of them.
DO NOT USE WATER IF YOU ARE PEPPER SPRAYED

Baking Soda or Milk. Some other methods work as well, but milk is the best choice due to the fact that it isn't a powder and won't cause as much irritation if you need to get pepper spray out of the area of your eyes. It is okay for the milk can go a little sour since you won't be drinking it. A day long protest is probably the max you wanna have unrefrigerated milk for though. If you got an expensive bottle that can keep your fluids cool, you can extend it some. If it's got chunks in it, it'll probably be losing effectiveness. Besides, it starts to smell and that small is hard to get rid of. Just the same, it's critical.

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Bauglir

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1781 on: November 23, 2011, 02:16:32 am »

Also, the casein in milk lets the capsaicin dissolve, which it won't do in water ordinarily - it's hydrophobic. Vegetable oil's a close second for getting rid of the stuff, but milk is just better because it'll also rinse things that are water-soluble that it seems at this point are almost certainly in the stuff.
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Osmosis Jones

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1782 on: November 23, 2011, 02:24:54 am »

A day long protest is probably the max you wanna have unrefrigerated milk for though. If you got an expensive bottle that can keep your fluids cool, you can extend it some. If it's got chunks in it, it'll probably be losing effectiveness. Besides, it starts to smell and that small is hard to get rid of. Just the same, it's critical.

A carton or two of UHT milk then?
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1783 on: November 23, 2011, 03:03:27 am »

Also, the casein in milk lets the capsaicin dissolve, which it won't do in water ordinarily - it's hydrophobic. Vegetable oil's a close second for getting rid of the stuff, but milk is just better because it'll also rinse things that are water-soluble that it seems at this point are almost certainly in the stuff.
Alcohol will dissolve capsaicin better than both of those, but carries the penalty of walking around doused in a flammable substance and attracting police to you like a magnet because you will obviously reek of alcohol and they probably won't bother to check your BAC before arresting you for public drunkenness. Or they'll just arrest you once you register sober anyway.


...wow, I apparently now see breaking legal arrest procedures as the norm for police. I don't know if that says more about me or the police.
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Bauglir

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1784 on: November 23, 2011, 03:09:03 am »

Also, wouldn't alcohol in the eyes hurt ridiculously badly? Not as badly as the pepper spray, I suppose. I wouldn't know for sure, actually, but I thought it had a tendency to sting membranes.
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.
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