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Author Topic: Occupying Wallstreet  (Read 297652 times)

Criptfeind

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1650 on: November 20, 2011, 02:54:13 am »

The idea is that anarchy is what MSH is talking about. All the time.

With institutions one can at least try to minimize it, but it seems that may have failed.
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Willfor

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1651 on: November 20, 2011, 02:58:26 am »

Because for the past many years, any time people have called other people evil instead of simply people with opposing views, they have been decried by the people who have come to be known as the authority for proper and logical thinking/discourse. "You're perfectly allowed to call people evil if you are a backward hick, but educated people shouldn't do it."

It's not hard at all to see where it comes from, honestly. Maybe I've simply had more exposure to it.
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In the wells of livestock vans with shells and garden sands /
Iron mixed with oxygen as per the laws of chemistry and chance /
A shape was roughly human, it was only roughly human /
Apparition eyes / Apparition eyes / Knock, apparition, knock / Eyes, apparition eyes /

SalmonGod

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1652 on: November 20, 2011, 03:00:48 am »

The idea is that anarchy is what MSH is talking about. All the time.

Not going to debate this, because my point wasn't anything qualitative about anarchy.

With institutions one can at least try to minimize it, but it seems that may have failed.

My point was that so many people seem so shaken to the core by the idea that people in our institutions could be motivated by malice, that they will staunchly avoid entertaining the thought until it becomes a reality staring them in the face, and then behave as if their world is turned upside down by this revelation... and it makes no sense to me because those very same people will defend the existence of those institutions with the statement that they're necessary because there are malicious people in the world.  So why is the situation so surprising?
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Bauglir

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1653 on: November 20, 2011, 03:07:53 am »

It's basically the same principle as Reductio ad Hitlerum, I suppose. It gets so overused that an absolute ban becomes expected, even on the rare occasions where it's actually applicable.

I guess what I'm always floored by is the extent to which so many things aren't even about profit. I get corruption. It makes sense - do something shady, get a nice reward. It sucks that it happens so much, but it's comprehensible to me. But then there's things done to try and overcome these protests that are so blatantly counterproductive that you'd have to be fall-down drunk to think it was actually going to work. Things that can only possibly be worthwhile if the goal is to cause short-term misery at the expense of any long-term chance of maintaining the status quo. Pretty much every example of the use of force, really. That's what I mean by malice.

So again I ask. When did cartoon villains stop being cartoons? Is this perception a flaw in myself, or does it actually describe real events, as mind-bogglingly insane as that sounds?
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

Criptfeind

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1654 on: November 20, 2011, 03:15:23 am »

My point was that so many people seem so shaken to the core by the idea that people in our institutions could be motivated by malice, that they will staunchly avoid entertaining the thought until it becomes a reality staring them in the face, and then behave as if their world is turned upside down by this revelation... and it makes no sense to me because those very same people will defend the existence of those institutions with the statement that they're necessary because there are malicious people in the world.  So why is the situation so surprising?

You make these grand claims about what people think.

Why do you think people think that?

I mean, yeah, I make grand claims as well, but at least what I say does not boil down to "people are dumb".

Also yes. Just because there are evil people in the world does not mean that institutions, even ones that will inevitably fail because the infiltration of evil, are useless.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2011, 03:17:57 am by Criptfeind »
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SalmonGod

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1655 on: November 20, 2011, 03:37:59 am »

It's no grand mind-reading claim.  I've seen both the former statement and the latter reaction from thousands of people, very often the same people.  I don't think people are dumb anymore than I think people are evil.  It's undeniable that people do malicious things, but I don't believe a single person has ever existed who does only malicious things.

I guess what I'm always floored by is the extent to which so many things aren't even about profit. I get corruption. It makes sense - do something shady, get a nice reward. It sucks that it happens so much, but it's comprehensible to me. But then there's things done to try and overcome these protests that are so blatantly counterproductive that you'd have to be fall-down drunk to think it was actually going to work. Things that can only possibly be worthwhile if the goal is to cause short-term misery at the expense of any long-term chance of maintaining the status quo. Pretty much every example of the use of force, really. That's what I mean by malice.

So again I ask. When did cartoon villains stop being cartoons? Is this perception a flaw in myself, or does it actually describe real events, as mind-bogglingly insane as that sounds?

It's part malice inspired by hate bred in our culture against stereotypes -- in this case a remorseless sense of justification towards the act of dirty hippy bashing.  Go read ever so many comments on news articles, pictures, and videos all over the internet.  "They got what they deserved for breaking the law.  Dirty lazy hippies should abandon their sense of entitlement, take a shower, and get a job."  I've seen the same thoughts repeated by police officers.

The other part is desperation.  They tried ignoring us.  We didn't go away.  They tried intimidating us.  We didn't go away.  They tried twisting the media against us.  We grew.  They've tested the nature of this thing and found it can't be defeated in an information war.  Their only option is force, and the only way that can work for them is if they provoke us into a fight.  They know that all-out brutality will only bolster our numbers and resolve, unless they piss us off enough first to provoke us into a real fight.  As soon as it turns into a real fight, they know exactly what to do and are more than capable of handling it.  They're measuring short-term costs vs long-term risks.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Itnetlolor

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1656 on: November 20, 2011, 03:55:29 am »

Looking at all the events unfolding, it makes me wonder who the true anarchists really are. The people, or the government?

When the hell did Saturday morning cartoon villains start seeming like the sensible explanation?
So again I ask. When did cartoon villains stop being cartoons? Is this perception a flaw in myself, or does it actually describe real events, as mind-bogglingly insane as that sounds?
 
I've had a nagging feeling that I've had foresight of all this happening a good 10-20 years ago (hell, even when 9/11 happened, I felt that something was a bit off. But that topic could derail this one. Short story, I was the only person in town that kept his cool for the next few weeks afterward. Hell, even with the World Trade Center buildings burning, I had faith it would blow over and we will live on and prosper, and we'll be alright; or at least assure it to help the more shaken up.). It started off as an interesting story to go by; but now that it has become reality, all I can really say to anyone that even remembers any of my ramblings or random topics (like at workplaces and whatnot) is essentially the same thing as I say with most TV shows nowadays (except some animes, but those are different cases), "Saw it coming.". Elaborating on the response would be, as expected, "the reason I didn't act or speak up is the very same reasons lucid crackpots keep their mouths shut. Why talk or act when everyone just labels you as crazy? (the not good/fun kind)"

Spoiler: tl,dr stuff (click to show/hide)

However, back to 'reality'.

With my mentat skills, I perceive/estimate that the forces/"Control Group" (viewers, more than police) will be questioning the loyalty and patriotic value of the people, or call them socialists or be pinned to be unfaithful/anarchists are evil. Some smartass will state that they may not be "saints" like the media showed the president, or anyone else running this country, but any, and I mean any individual in this group has a ton of faith, like the mustard seed; more than any other "saint" has ever shown on TV, and unlike them, We (the Occupiers) are real people. We may be sinners, but at least we seek repentance. Quoting the Bible verse itself even (poster board included maybe), “Because of your unbelief; for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you." --Jesus Christ (with picture included; possibly also wearing Kamina's glasses). That'll shut them up (with at least words to that effect). But knowing the media, they'll just be dicks and either ignore it, or make it like a show of mockery, rather than a point of just how unstoppable they are, just by standing their ground like a tree; or in these cases, a thick forest.

I mean, watch a vine grow all over a brick wall, and watch that brick wall eventually fall apart or erode into nothing. Plants can essentially also do that to mountains (not an elf).

EDIT:
I like that sinner line I came up with. Sounds like it would knock any Holier Than Thou type off their pride pedestal, and flat on their ass. Definitely keeping that one as a comeback for the future.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2011, 12:59:20 pm by Itnetlolor »
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lordcooper

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1657 on: November 20, 2011, 11:00:06 am »

I don't even know how to feel any more. Except that I'm not doing enough. And I don't know if going down a night or two a week and talking to people and waving some signs around for an hour or so is doing anything at all. And I don't know what else I can do, and the whole thing just sickens me, and... urgh.

Talk to people.  Talk to those who have little to no interest in the protests and those who condemn them.  Convince them they're wrong and you'll be doing a lot more than any one person waving a sign.
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Grimith

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1658 on: November 20, 2011, 11:45:18 am »

I am truly beginning to be haunted by the feeling that there is no hope left for the United States of America, or at least not any incarnation of it I'd see and approve of. There is a shift now, one I can almost feel, of human vice drowning out everything good that I can see. Drowning together, all of us, slowly or quickly. Drowning the whole world.

In this dark time, the Liberal Crime Squad is born...

More seriously, my knowledge of the movement is limited and extends only to what has occurred here in South Carolina, where Governor Nikki Haley has taken some serious flak for the 6:00 PM curfew she imposed upon protesters here and the subsequent arrests. Naturally, some protestors remain undeterred, but, at this point, "Occupy Columbia" appears to have sparked more interest in First Amendment arguments than social and economic inequality.

SalmonGod

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1659 on: November 20, 2011, 01:20:53 pm »

6 PM?... So basically it's illegal to be out after dark?... but I suppose that's only being enforced on protesters?  Do I need to point out that is exactly the sort of thing dictators have done in response to protests against them?

All of the electronics seized in the recent Zucotti Park raid were destroyed, and movement techies were apparently held separately from other protesters after arrests.  The NYPD understands their importance.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2011, 01:28:37 pm by SalmonGod »
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

kaijyuu

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1660 on: November 20, 2011, 02:00:58 pm »

This song keeps coming to mind when I read stuff about this.

It won't be televised. It'll be streamed on youtube.
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

Impending Doom

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Quote from: Robert A.Heinlein
Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion, that violence has never solved anything, is wishful thinking at its worst.

ChairmanPoo

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1662 on: November 20, 2011, 03:43:23 pm »

As if any of those initiatives worked.
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Powder Miner

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1663 on: November 20, 2011, 03:55:01 pm »

...
...
...
You know, I may disagree with the Occupy Wall Street movement, but What. The. H!@#.
...I'm sure those police are breaking so many laws it's not even funny...
What happened to the First Amendment?
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ECrownofFire

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1664 on: November 20, 2011, 03:56:15 pm »

...
...
...
You know, I may disagree with the Occupy Wall Street movement, but What. The. H!@#.
...I'm sure those police are breaking so many laws it's not even funny...
What happened to the First Amendment?
You're a bit late for noticing that the government can just throw the first amendment out when it feels like it.
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