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[MetalSlimeHunt]

You'd be surprised. There are a disturbingly large number of people who vocally wonder why the cops don't just shoot all those dirty socialist hippies. I have a few friendships that are nearing their end as a result of attitudes like that. And one of them is a cop. 

"No, MSH", everyone tells me, "You are intolerant of police officers who are all reasonable and normal people. Why must you always cherry pick bad cases!" Bah.

[Realmfighter]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

List of Demands from OCCUPY WINNIPEG on the transformation of the criminal injustice system --->

Demands of both our movement partners and placed on the government:
1. Immediate, absolute, and unconditional rejection of Bill C-10 (2011).

2. An Immediate and permanent moratorium on prison expansion and construction.

3. Immediate support of transformative justice as the primary method of our justice system and necessary alternative to incarceration

4. Abolition of the current prison system within 10 years to be replaced by a system of healing based on transformative and restorative justice

5. Restore social assistance to individuals with outstanding warrants

6. Restore full healthcare coverage to people injured in stolen vehicles

7. Immediate suspension of returning youth to prison for minor breaches

8. Immediately amend legislation so that the Manitoba Police Commission be overseen by elected and directly recallable public/civilian representatives with no law enforcement ties. Hold these elections by April 2012.

9. The BIZ patrols be fully accountable to and reviewable by the democratically elected Manitoba Police Commission

10. The Government of Manitoba call for an immediate constitutional convention with the explicit purpose of devolving the criminal code to the provinces, so Manitoba can immediately institute a system of transformative justice and a process of decarceration and excarceration.

With these demands in mind Occupy Winnipeg will be launching a campaign in coalition with our allies to make sure our demands are met.

I love you socialist hippy bastards~~~

[RedKing]

You'd be surprised. There are a disturbingly large number of people who vocally wonder why the cops don't just shoot all those dirty socialist hippies. I have a few friendships that are nearing their end as a result of attitudes like that. And one of them is a cop. 

"No, MSH", everyone tells me, "You are intolerant of police officers who are all reasonable and normal people. Why must you always cherry pick bad cases!" Bah.

Yeah, I'm severely disappointed. We've had some serious online dustups over this the last couple of months. 

[SalmonGod]

Actually, I've learned that there are more good cops out there than I thought.  I've also been surprised at just how much it seems to depend on the location, too.  Most places have not had nearly as much trouble as Oakland, Boston, and NY.  Some have been almost friendly.  The thing that has become most clear is that decent people in the police force have absolutely no sway over the behavior of corrupt co-workers.  The institution as a whole is completely fucked up.

[Leafsnail]

It's only been, what a month or so? The civil rights movement took YEARS. So long as people have the determination to see this through, things will change.

A difference is that the civil rights movement, when it did well, usually had some pretty specific demands.  Like getting rid of this racist law, stopping that racist practise etc.  Occupy just... well, doesn't really seem to have that.

[Nadaka]

It's only been, what a month or so? The civil rights movement took YEARS. So long as people have the determination to see this through, things will change.

A difference is that the civil rights movement, when it did well, usually had some pretty specific demands.  Like getting rid of this racist law, stopping that racist practise etc.  Occupy just... well, doesn't really seem to have that.

And the civil rights movement was what? a century old? before it got the majority of the equality that was demanded.

[Leafsnail]

Sure, but I don't see how that's relevant to what I just said.

[Nadaka]

OWS is a brand new movement without any formal structure or leadership. It is damn near impossible for "pretty specific demands" to be their focus at this point.

There are problems identified, points of view shared, and general demands already.

It is relevant because you are comparing the effectiveness of a movement that had generations to develop and perfect its message to one that is barely started.

I would also point out that a lot of the problems that OWS are far more difficult to pin down specific issues because they are intentionally obfuscated from the public. "Blacks must sit at the back of the bus" is far more publicly obvious than the graft and corruption that is disenfranchising the people of this nation. I'll point to one of the more recent civil rights successes. It has taken more than 50 years to correct inequity in farm subsidies that were unofficially but systematically denied to black farmers but granted to white farmers. It took that long in part because it wasn't as apparent.

[darkflagrance]

It's only been, what a month or so? The civil rights movement took YEARS. So long as people have the determination to see this through, things will change.

A difference is that the civil rights movement, when it did well, usually had some pretty specific demands.  Like getting rid of this racist law, stopping that racist practise etc.  Occupy just... well, doesn't really seem to have that.

Occupy as a whole perhaps, but the single local one I attended had a list of specific conditions for the local administration and had even entered negotiations with a union over some of their conditions. Perhaps the same is true for at least some other local Occupys?

[Powder Miner]

snip- this part isn't what i'm responding to.

What we're fighting today is the fact that a relative handful of people own most of the planet and don't want to share, even if it means impoverishing 90% of the global population.  This can only go one of three ways.  Incredible numbers of people meekly resign themselves to starvation and homelessness, we convince the 1% to limit their greed, or we hurt them.

Ugh, I won't get into how much
I hate the "it's their duty to share" ideology, but

or we hurt them

GARGH... really?

Spoiler: Political rant (click to show/hide)

I changed my mind, I WILL get into how much I hate the ideology.
First of all, the people who are wealthy earned their money. They deserve to keep it. Some of the people who are poor are unemployed. They do not have a job, and unfortunate as it is, the wealthy ones (more than just 1% by the way, and the do not own most of the planet, just good sections of the economy because businesses ARE the economy) shouldn't be forced to have their money taken away from them. Another section of the poorer people are unlucky and have been turned down due to money problems- I'm sorry about that too-, but (in my opinion of course) if we take the conservative policies that will be taken care of. And the people who lack skill... that's also unfortunate, and they would have more low-skill jobs but there's things I really won't get into because this is as far as I'm pushing it here...

[SalmonGod]

I would also point out that a lot of the problems that OWS are far more difficult to pin down specific issues because they are intentionally obfuscated from the public. "Blacks must sit at the back of the bus" is far more publicly obvious than the graft and corruption that is disenfranchising the people of this nation. I'll point to one of the more recent civil rights successes. It has taken more than 50 years to correct inequity in farm subsidies that were unofficially but systematically denied to black farmers but granted to white farmers. It took that long in part because it wasn't as apparent.

I'll repeat this just to back up your point, as an example.

"4 Ways the Poor Get Screwed That Everyone Takes for Granted"

Obfuscation is one of the main problems in the modern world with establishing productive criticism that is understandable to a large audience.  Much of it relies on pointing out how subtle things that are seen as completely ordinary by most people have widespread consequences that aren't immediately obvious or easy to explain.  There is tons of counter-culture literature on this subject.  How many people do you know with the capacity to honestly appreciate the concept of The Society of the Spectacle?


Edit:

Powder Miner, I don't even need to debate with you whether you are right or wrong on your points.  It is a simple fact that large amounts of people, and a substantial portion of them every bit as intelligent and hard-working as the super rich, are facing homelessness, starvation, and lack of needed medical care.  They are fighting for self-preservation.  No amount of reasoning is going to convince them to stop fighting for their own survival.  Whether or not the haves truly earned everything they have, this is going to come down to the simple fact that they share or people die.  If they choose not to share, then the people will attempt to take in order to avoid dying.

This has always been a feature of society to some extent, but civilization has always gone through cycles where resources get too concentrated in too few hands and too many people are made to suffer to be shunted off to the fringes of society where they can be ignored.  Right now, we're at that point in the cycle again.

[Powder Miner]

Powder Miner, I don't even need to debate with you whether you are right or wrong on your points.

Yes you do.

It is a simple fact that large amounts of people, and a substantial portion of them every bit as intelligent and hard-working as the super rich, are facing homelessness, starvation, and lack of needed medical care.

Doesn't mean you should punish the rich (It's not even just the super-rich)

They are fighting for self-preservation.  No amount of reasoning is going to convince them to stop fighting for their own survival.

We can't say the same about improving the economy can we?

Whether or not the haves truly earned everything they have, this is going to come down to the simple fact that they share or people die.  If they choose not to share, then the people will attempt to take in order to avoid dying.

A: "They share or people die"? Not really. People always die no matter what you do, and my view on things is that if you force equality, everyone fights for survival. This is not what is preferred. And if they do attempt to forcibly take, that is what police are for. I don't care who you are, I do not condone robbery.

This has always been a feature of society to some extent, but civilization has always gone through cycles where resources get too concentrated in too few hands and too many people are made to suffer to be shunted off to the fringes of society where they can be ignored.

Not really actually, not at all. Middle classes are a rare thing. They've only really ever existed in modern life and in Rome. Saying that we're in a cycle and this is a point is incorrect- that cycle never existed. Historically, most of civilization has been rich and poor. There's no cycle, and the problem we have to deal with now is the restrictions on business- less money in businesses equals less money for jobs equals less jobs equals more poor and starving people. This same equalizing approach has been tried by Europe, and well look at them now. Equalizing doesn't work.
[/quote]

[kaijyuu]

I'll just pop in and say one thing about people "earning" money.

In our society, only one talent is really rewarded: business management. The geniuses and hard workers, working in the lab and making the product? They get manipulated. Their talents and hard work may actually be what causes the outgoing product to be good, but what keeps the business running are the executives, and they get all the money.

Anyone who thinks people should be rewarded relative to their prowess should absolutely loathe our system.

[Powder Miner]

I'll just pop in and say one thing about people "earning" money.

In our society, only one talent is really rewarded: business management. The geniuses and hard workers, working in the lab and making the product? They get manipulated. Their talents and hard work may actually be what causes the outgoing product to be good, but what keeps the business running are the executives, and they get all the money.

Anyone who thinks people should be rewarded relative to their prowess should absolutely loathe our system.

I do, but not in the way you think. The whole union system (prepared to take flak here) Is what prevents them from getting higher wages- Wages have to be equal.

[kaijyuu]

And removing unions would prevent the geniuses and hard workers from being milked and manipulated... how?