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Author Topic: Occupying Wallstreet  (Read 294631 times)

Osmosis Jones

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1470 on: November 10, 2011, 11:21:08 pm »

88 billion is pocket money for America's budget.

Yah, remember that government revenue scales with population, plus you have a far larger finance sector. According to wikipedia, we spent around $15 billion on health in Aus in the 2009-2010 budget (there was a $64bn over 5 years thing, plus some other stuff), while you guys spent $782 billion (all values in $Aus, but converting it doesn't change the numbers much). In other words, you already spend 52 times as much, when you only have 13.6 times the pop.

Given that, you guys should be furious, you should protesting in the streets, you should be camping out in front of government offices, you should- oh, wait...

Carry on then.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1471 on: November 10, 2011, 11:26:11 pm »

Given that, you guys should be furious, you should protesting in the streets, you should be camping out in front of government offices, you should- oh, wait...

Carry on then.

We should have been doing it a very, very long time ago.
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Tellemurius

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1472 on: November 10, 2011, 11:30:44 pm »

........ Hey i at least volunteer at their cooking stations.

DJ

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1473 on: November 11, 2011, 01:19:02 am »

I think the main reason why lobbying got so out of hand is that campaign funding has too much influence on election results. IMO election campaigns should be regulated by imposing strict funding caps.
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Duuvian

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1474 on: November 11, 2011, 01:55:44 am »

http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/article/20111110/NEWS01/311100023/1002/NEWS01

Our state government does not respect the democratic process that passed the Michigan Medical Marihuana act in a popular vote.

Is this because they are totally unaware of the laws of supply and demand and money supply in effect in a black market, thus showing incompetence in a simple economic matter? Or is it because they support the Mexican drug cartels who used to have no competition in shipping marijuana to Michigan from Arizona and other southern states?

Or is it simply because they are incredibly selfish politicians, willing to destroy a burgeoning industry that will not only keep marijuana money from leaving the state but also enable individuals to produce a limited amount of valuable product with no fear of industrial competition flooding the market with mass produced goods?
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 01:58:53 am by Duuvian »
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Osmosis Jones

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1475 on: November 11, 2011, 01:58:30 am »

Linky

Some of the posters that've been cropping up about OWS are amazing. (Watch the vid)
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mainiac

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1476 on: November 11, 2011, 02:41:55 am »

I remember being exited about the idea that health insurance providers would be bound to spend a certain portion of their yearly outlay on actual medical services (I recall 85%, up from the current effective 35%) as a way of controlling costs by basically making it illegal for an insurance company to make too much money without a way to spend it.  I also remember all such ideas dying in the service of getting it passed.  I have no doubt that I could be wrong about all that, and I'd love to be, but I freely admit that it's been a while since I've looked into it.

That made it in the bill.  People were just disappointed that the percentage wasn't higher.  But that's a sideshow to the essential three reforms.  All together now...

A) The dreaded individual mandate
B) The beloved community rating, ban on remissions and exchanges
C) The hippie socialist subsidies for the poor

In a nutshell, what we want to do is make it so that insurance companies stop cherry picking people or rescinding coverage when people get sick.  So we do part B, saying that every insurance company has to offer the same plan to anybody in a state for the same price.  They are allowed to slightly modify the plan based on three and only three factors (age, location and smoker/non-smoker) and can only do so according to certain set parameters.  Companies that insure lots of people who have pre-existing conditions get subsidies paid by the companies that insure few people with pre-existing coverage.  Insurance plans are required to meet certain minimums for things like affordability, percentage of overhead spent on medical costs and coverage or else federal regulations kick in.  We all celebrate because everybody has a right to buy insurance at a fair rate.  And the law states that every state needs to have at least some number (I think three?) plans available on it's "exchange", or the state has to start offering a state run plan that meets certain guidelines.  If the state doesn't, the federal government will step in and do so (nearly every state is taking steps to avoid that).
But there is a problem.  This system creates an incentive to not buy insurance until you get sick because you can buy it then at the same price.  But if nobody buys insurance until they are sick, the price of insurance skyrockets because the average insurance buyer is sicker.  There is a lot of ways to fix this, but the one that leads to the most efficient system is part A, the dreaded individual mandate.  Everybody has to buy insurance or they pay a tax penalty.  There are exemptions possible on grounds of religion or poverty.  This system has been tried in Massachusetts and abroad and results in high rates of insurance coverage.
Some people can't afford insurance though.  The poorest will be covered by Medicaid but there are some above the Medicaid level for whom insurance will be a big financial burden.  So that's where C comes in, subsidies to offset some of that burden.  These subsidies are paid for by a bit under 800 billion dollars in taxes levied over the next 10 years.  These taxes are levied on various stuff that drives up the cost of healthcare in this country.

There is a bunch of other stuff in there too.  Programs to help hospitals and doctors move to more efficient record keeping (my dad is convinced that is the most important thing but it's pretty small fry compared to the other stuff).  Various programs to try out different models of non-profits in different areas.  Research into medical efficiency.  Publication of health information by every restaurant chain with more then 50 franchises.  Kids can stay on their parents plans 'till 26.  Literally hundreds of other small things, they took the kitchen sink approach.

So basically you've got this huge law that does tons of stuff but it relies on one unpopular provision, the individual mandate.  It isn't necessary per-se, but it is the most efficient solution and best for us all in the long run.  But it is completely worth it because it gives us the freedom to actually fix the health insurance marketplace.  Insurance providers won't be able to compete by cherry-picking customers and denying coverage anymore.  The only way for them to compete will be to compete at providing care and attracting customers.  In the long run, a market that actually works is going to provide compounding benefits.  A big company friendly marketplace is still better for the little guy then a fundamentally broken marketplace.

All this stuff was in the news for over a year during the ACA debate.  It amazes me how few people understand what the heck the bill was.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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mainiac

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1477 on: November 11, 2011, 02:54:49 am »

Unfortunately though, it still boils down to this
The ACCA takes a deeply broken market that has a cycle of skyrocketing cost increases and makes it less broken.

That's still broken. Indeed, by an objective standard, that's still horribly broken.

Yeah, but at least we are moving in the right direction.  When healthcare costs are rising at 8% a year, you can do some pretty drastic reforms and things will still be bad at the end.  But keep in mind that it's a vast improvement from the absolutely horrendous state before.  Things got this bad because the system chugged along for nearly 50 years without any real reforms.  Just getting started after 50 years of false starts is reasons for hope.

The ACA get's us most of the way to a workable system, really.  It's a framework around which a system could emerge like they have in Switzerland or the Netherlands.  It even allows hope for a state based single payer scheme, as we are seeing up in Birkenstock-land.
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Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
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"Don't tell me what you value. Show me your budget and I will tell you what you value"
« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

Osmosis Jones

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1478 on: November 11, 2011, 03:39:29 am »

...and now for a little light hearted occupy news;

Whoops
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Nadaka

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1479 on: November 11, 2011, 01:56:47 pm »

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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1480 on: November 11, 2011, 02:06:54 pm »

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SalmonGod

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1481 on: November 11, 2011, 03:08:54 pm »

Linky

Some of the posters that've been cropping up about OWS are amazing. (Watch the vid)

Watching that video makes me want to quit my job immediately and contribute   :(
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Zangi

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SalmonGod

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1483 on: November 11, 2011, 05:51:31 pm »

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In the land of twilight, under the moon
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In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Cicero

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #1484 on: November 11, 2011, 07:00:16 pm »

The Occupy protestors in my home city of Halifax were attacked by police today...I'd seen it get violent in other cities before but for it to happen here...it was shocking. The protesters had left the area they were camping in when asked, to make room for the Remembrance Day ceremony, and had moved to a nearby park. Then, without warning and violating the agreement made between the leader and the protestors, the police brutally evicted the protesters and arrested 6 of them. This decision was made by the mayor without the support of city council.

Now I'm not saying I'm a supporter of the movement. Sure, politically I'm certainly on the left, but I'm not going to go camp out to support a protest with no real goals. However I am in favour of democracy and what was done here was clearly undemocratic. Violation of free speech, and circumvention of the democratic process...Mayor Peter Kelly, who I've always supported, has lost my vote!
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