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[Siquo]

Here's another problem.

Yeah, you're right (really, that was not sarcasm). I'm quite a non-judgemental person, except when I see other people judge Which is kind of hypocritical/paradoxical/self-defeating now that I think about it.

I'm just... I believe that there's good in everyone, even those who deserve to <insert some obligatiry rant about torturing pedophiles here to show that I'm human, too>, they are not inherently evil. Misguided, ignorant, damaged perhaps, but nobody is evil.

[Il Palazzo]

Aren't you all on the same side though? You act as if it was only one view or the other and no middle ground was possible, even though what Siquo is talking about does not in principle contradict the rest of you.
He's talking about the underlying causes, the complacent, headonistic, willfully ignorant mentality shared by all too many people. You're talking about the actual, more immediately affecting you mechanisms that arose from that mentality.

So it'll look like sitting on the fence, but I think that both sides are right. Yes, the current system needs a major revamp, and I'm just as these "Occupy" people in not knowing how exactly should it be changed.
But even if you'd change the system, and still have people buy into the same crap that they are used to, the same kind of bullshit as we've got today will make its way back into the society.

It's not like you're arguing from mutually exclusive standpoints, so why not cut the confrontational behaviour and try to see each other arguments' merits?

[Dsarker]

On the other hand, no person is good.

[mainiac]

Here's another problem.

Yeah, you're right (really, that was not sarcasm). I'm quite a non-judgemental person, except when I see other people judge Which is kind of hypocritical/paradoxical/self-defeating now that I think about it.

I'm just... I believe that there's good in everyone, even those who deserve to <insert some obligatiry rant about torturing pedophiles here to show that I'm human, too>, they are not inherently evil. Misguided, ignorant, damaged perhaps, but nobody is evil.

Okay, YOU ARE WRONG.  Read some political philosophy.  "Never judge" is a great slogan but a shit way to actually run the world.

[Chaoswizkid]

I've already posted a counterargument that you haven't addressed, Siquo.

Yeah you did, sorry I missed that.

It's alright. I just felt your current argument was still being countered with mine, so it seemed to remain relevant.

Well, I don't really know what's so fundamental about it.
For instance, life "used to be better". At the same time, a lot of other people in the world were getting the short end of the stick, and getting it worse and worse. Where was everybody then? On the barricades? No, complacent.

Now, you're on the short end of the stick. Other people (your 0.1%) are getting better and better. Where are they? On the barricades? No, complacent.

Just. Like. You. Why are you blaming them for doing what you've been doing? Or if not you, then what your neighbour has been doing? Why aren't you blaming him?

I stand by my point: the 0.1% are not the only guilty ones. The entire western world and then some (don't think there's no billionaires in Africa ) has been living above and beyond what is sustainable, it has been borrowing from the rest of the world, but once it's payback time (and believe me, this is not even CLOSE to when that happens) for the partying that everybody did, people point to the people who threw the party. This has all been happening for so long under everyones noses... Why now? What happened? Oh, now it's actually affecting you, then you start caring. I've been pissed off at about 90% of the world (that's a lot of bad decisions, people) for more than 18 years now. Can't say I've got a lot of "being pissed off" left for this subject, perhaps that's why don't understand this whole Occupy thing. For me it's more holistic. I see this mountain of shit flying towards a fan in slow motion for the last two decades, and it hasn't even hit yet. And I'm a hypocrite as well. I look around me and live the good life that my birth gives me, and hope it doesn't end before I do.

I'm not getting why this is so upsetting for you lot (this you is about the forumites)... Your reactions are... way beyond the normal level of cool-and-calmness.

I think I'm finally beginning to see where you're coming from. You aren't saying we are necessarily directly guilty for all of the evils of the world (or, rather you are but for the purpose of what I'm trying to say, I assume/term that it isn't), but rather that we are guilty for allowing it to happen. We are guilty for standing around twiddling our thumbs while the world breaks down around us, and you're trying to point out that it's been breaking down around us, just that now the noise pollution is too high for us to remain comfortable in our complacency. Am I correct?

If that is so, then I have to agree with you. I'd have to say we are guilty as a society for allowing ourselves to be ignorant of what was happening, as the information was always there, we just haven't noticed it until now.

Still, though, must you remain stalwart in saying that we cannot blame those who appear to have disproportionate power (That is, enough money to control the greed in many a person's heart)? True, we have served to skyrocket them into their positions by being consumers, or by voting them into office. We are perhaps guilty of that. However, does that still not mean that they are more guilty? Lobbyists actively destroy publicly supported legislation, banks practically engineered the economic crisis, etc. We may be passively guilty in our complacency, in our ignorance, but is passive guilt really equatable to active guilt? Are you saying we cannot blame those who are doing such things more than we can blame ourselves for allowing it to happen?

I suppose that is a matter of personal opinion, and mine is that we can blame those with active guilt to a higher degree, and with more conviction, than ourselves. This would perhaps be different if there was some point in the past in which all of society knew, really knew, that this was going to happen, and then did nothing. I would have to say that is this moment of the Occupy movements for the future. If in the future we do nothing now that society has been educated, then we can blame ourselves, because society sat back and ignored all of the voices who spoke out, all of the words written in the newspapers and in all the online articles.

Even so, Siquo, I can't really understand why you don't understand or approve of the Occupy movements. Is this not the moment you've been waiting for, for people to realize how screwed up the situation is? Is this not a movement for change that is in line with your ideals? True, there are other problems than just corporate greed, but corporate greed isn't the only thing I hear about watching the videos from Occupy Wall St. The people are complaining about more than just Wall St., and it sounds like they're complaining about similar things that you are. It may not be the main focus, but it is attached.

It's almost like you don't approve of them because they didn't start being pissed at the way things were being done when you started.
It's almost like you're, and I'm honestly saying this in a light and joking tone, a rage hipster.

Okay, YOU ARE WRONG.

Was the all-caps really necessary? =/

[Aqizzar]

We've built mountains, now they're toppling on top of us, and we blame the guys who are sitting on top of the mountains for it.

...

Now, you're on the short end of the stick. Other people (your 0.1%) are getting better and better. Where are they? On the barricades? No, complacent.

Just. Like. You. Why are you blaming them for doing what you've been doing? Or if not you, then what your neighbour has been doing? Why aren't you blaming him?

You keep saying these things like you think they mean something.  Can you point to one aspect of my life where I enabled the wholesale movement of retirement plans to stock portfolios, only to be slashed apart as companies can secretly take out tax-exempt life-insurance policies on their employees?  Or where I allowed or approved of the freely acknowledged revolving door between bank regulation and bank managers?  Can you point to any part of your life that enabled these things?

No?  Then stop blaming "everyone" or "we" or whatever, including yourself.  It doesn't make you look reasonable, it makes you part of why public outcry has been discredited as a social activity for the last thirty years.

Here's another problem.

Yeah, you're right (really, that was not sarcasm). I'm quite a non-judgemental person, except when I see other people judge Which is kind of hypocritical/paradoxical/self-defeating now that I think about it.

I'm just... I believe that there's good in everyone, even those who deserve to <insert some obligatiry rant about torturing pedophiles here to show that I'm human, too>, they are not inherently evil. Misguided, ignorant, damaged perhaps, but nobody is evil.

Here is your problem.  You are an utterly judgmental person, you tell yourself that believing there's equal good and bad in everyone means you're off the hook for it.

That's the crux, right there (as in: I agree with the rest you said). And I think they're just as ignorant. I have to believe that, because if the opposite is true, and they're knowingly throwing this world into chaos and civil war, that means that they're not stupid, and have a backup plan to stay on top themselves, and there's fuck shit we can do about it. And sitting in a square yelling we want fair... everything, isn't going to deter them. Nothing will, not even brute force. We're all fucking doomed. So I believe they did it out of plain greed and stupidity, and well, who is without sin cast the first stone, etc. If greed were a crime 90% of the people would be in jail.

And so we come to the real point.  You either can't accept the idea that there are fabulously wealthy people in the world who genuinely don't care about what happens to the rest of the world, or you can't accept the idea that just because the people on top of a system acted in ignorance doesn't somehow make everyone else complicit in their ignorance.  Thank you for really explaining where you're coming from here, but I honestly I don't understand it.  Why is it necessary for you to believe that, what, people acting in knowingly destructive greed means we're all doomed so there's no reason to do anything about it, and/or some people are greedy therefor everyone is greedy therefore no one is allowed to complain?

[SalmonGod]

I don't believe there's good in everyone.  I believe there's good in the vast majority of people.  I also believe that a person can be good in some ways and bad in others.  I also believe that the structure of our society rewards certain bad qualities and places those who have those, plus some luck and talent, on top of the world.  I wouldn't exactly call them evil.  They are only doing what they've been encouraged to do, which is to be selfish.  I just find it very hard to believe that they don't understand how many people they step on (with deadly force) in the process.  Just because it's not evil doesn't mean it's excusable or that we can afford to let it go.

[Nadaka]

Here's another problem.

Yeah, you're right (really, that was not sarcasm). I'm quite a non-judgemental person, except when I see other people judge Which is kind of hypocritical/paradoxical/self-defeating now that I think about it.

I'm just... I believe that there's good in everyone, even those who deserve to <insert some obligatiry rant about torturing pedophiles here to show that I'm human, too>, they are not inherently evil. Misguided, ignorant, damaged perhaps, but nobody is evil.

I've said it before and I will say it again. Evil exists, I have experienced it first hand. It is real, and while people may not "be" evil, evil can so absolutely infect and corrupt someone that they become an irredeemabe living embodyment of the concept of evil. There is no room in my morality for subjectivity in accepting evil.

[mainiac]

Okay, YOU ARE WRONG.

Was the all-caps really necessary? =/

Yuuuuup.  Wanted to accentuate the fundamental difference.  If I wrote "you are wrong."  It would not have conveyed my belief that this was the crux of our philosophical difference.

[Siquo]

I'm not going to be told now that everything is my fault for not waking up sooner, and I'm sure as hell not going to be discouraged from taking action now over the observation that it took too long to get something started (and it did).

Well, that's more at "the world in general". I refer you to one of my previous signatures (I had it for years here): "I want to fight the fight, but I don't know who is right."

And I'm still skeptical. I'm pissed off but don't see solutions. Which is fucking depressing, especially if you think about what kind of world you put your kid in. Edit: rewording: I put my kid in.

On the other hand, no person is good.

Hmm, strictly speaking. But have you ever been helped unselfishly, has your heart been warmed by another human, has anyone ever cared selflessly for you? One good may not right everything, but we can strive for good.

but rather that we are guilty for allowing it to happen. We are guilty for standing around twiddling our thumbs while the world breaks down around us, and you're trying to point out that it's been breaking down around us, just that now the noise pollution is too high for us to remain comfortable in our complacency. Am I correct?

Sort of. Active and passive are strange that way. Take the (Oh, it's fake by the way) famous quote: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing", for instance. People have actively been paying money to people who eventually let it all flow to, say, GoldmanSachs. This "action", combined with my stand that ignorance is never an excuse, makes it an active contribution, to me. So for me, no party is "more guilty" than another.

Even so, Siquo, I can't really understand why you don't understand or approve of the Occupy movements. Is this not the moment you've been waiting for, for people to realize how screwed up the situation is?

Yes and no. I'd rather have the source taken care of. Now we'll just get more jobs, some symbolical laws will be passed, we get more bread and plays, and it all just stays the same. I don't want it to blow up either, because anarchy and a world aflame isn't really the best place to raise a kid (or so they say). What do I want? I don't know, or I'd be fighting for it like a madman.

It's almost like you don't approve of them because they didn't start being pissed at the way things were being done when you started.
It's almost like you're, and I'm honestly saying this in a light and joking tone, a rage hipster.

Oohhh Low blow there. But yes, for a different reason: if everyone had gotten pissed off earlier, this wouldn't have been necessary.

"Never judge" is a great slogan but a shit way to actually run the world.

I'm glad you don't, if you call "you're wrong and I'm right" a philosophical difference

And so we come to the real point. Why is it necessary for you to believe that, what, people acting in knowingly destructive greed means we're all doomed so there's no reason to do anything about it, and/or some people are greedy therefor everyone is greedy therefore no one is allowed to complain?

Well, [1] if the first is true and the whole crisis is a conspiracy and happening on purpose, that means that this "public outcry" was part of the plan, and useless. It means that crying, fighting, yelling isn't going to help in any way. That's a pretty fucking depressing outlook. I'd like to think there's still something we can do.
The second option, they did it out of ignorant greed, places them on equal footing with the 90% (and I'm being fucking lenient here, no way 9% of the population is not greedy) who put them in a place of power (also just by being ignorant and greedy). It's just a naturally evolved situation. Nobody is actually to blame. Of course, screaming justice and revenge and what have you will take place, as it always happens, but it just makes me sad that it's still just covering up the underlying problem that created the situation in the first place. In the 60s there were hippies and peace and love and then there was money and we all just kind of forgot (YES I know you and I weren't around, it's about society don't take this so personal). Edit: on my 3rd reread this still is an incoherent piece of text. Perhaps I can rephrase this better at another time.

Just because it's not evil doesn't mean it's excusable or that we can afford to let it go.

True. Too true. But it wouldn't be fair, now would it? My neighbour is greedy, as is his neighbour. Do we all get to go to jail, or just those symbolic few who actually succeeded in their greed?

[1] Sorry to ignore the rest of your post but I still wasn't adressing the singular you. You picked a few causes of a crisis that has many more, and I'm sure I can cherry pick a few causes where you have been instrumental, albeit in the slightest possible way. "We" is society, and my choice of "You" was a bad choice of words.


So I'd like to rephrase: If everyone would just change their signs to "we are the 100%", it'd make sense to me.

[Dsarker]

Well...One hypostasis in two substances, yes, a human has helped me selflessly. But he's the only good human.

[Leafsnail]

I've been helped selflessly several times (once when having a fit, once when a family member was injured, once when our vehicle caught fire).  I dunno, maybe you don't get into trouble that often?

[mainiac]

So I'd like to rephrase: If everyone would just change their signs to "we are the 100%", it'd make sense to me.

But that would not make sense.  The people who are to blame the most came out smelling like roses.  They aren't having their lives fucked up while a great number of people who are basically blameless are.

[Vector]

Siquo, I'm not quite sure what you expect the kids who work their asses off for 17 years in school and who yet still can't manage to get employed to do.  What did they do wrong?  Should they have worked harder?  Refused the education system, and gone off to be a hermit in the woods?  What?

[Dsarker]

So I'd like to rephrase: If everyone would just change their signs to "we are the 100%", it'd make sense to me.

But that would not make sense.  The people who are to blame the most came out smelling like roses.  They aren't having their lives fucked up while a great number of people who are basically blameless are.

What Siquo believes (I believe, so most certainly tell me how wrong I am) is that the people on top did not orchestrate a conspiracy to do this, but come out on top by accident/luck. It was everyone who made the world as it is today who is to blame.