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Author Topic: Occupying Wallstreet  (Read 295107 times)

Aqizzar

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #600 on: October 17, 2011, 05:13:31 pm »

Not to mention, it's been tried before in the 1960s.  Sure, modern science might have a better shot at it, but you can't really make a pill or even a cocktail of pills that can supply all the dietary needs of every person.  Besides, you need a certain amount of bulk in your diet, that's why we eat food in the first place as opposed to just slurping algae.
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Descan

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #601 on: October 17, 2011, 05:17:23 pm »

Yeah, I know the bulk requirements. That's why a protein shake, where you get your protein and calories from.
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ECrownofFire

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #602 on: October 17, 2011, 05:20:30 pm »

Im sure a pill like that would probally be ironically expensive, or atleast somewhat expensive.
It's called a multi-vitamin and they're maybe 5-10 bucks for a big bottle of them.

The only issues I really see are protein, calories, fat, sodium, and other things that are a bit difficult to put into a pill.

For bulk you could find a pill without X then eat things high in X.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #603 on: October 17, 2011, 05:35:35 pm »

The issue with an all-purpose nutrient pill that would remain even if they were possible and affordable is the psychological aspect. Given nutrients or not, your digestive tract is going to start sending distress signals to your brain if it thinks you aren't eating anything. The brain will respond with all-consuming hunger and a feeling of hollowness, followed by stomach aches.

Even if that weren't the case, most people would probably get anxious about not eating anything with substance. It's like breathing hyper-oxygenated fluids: It's physically fine, but that didn't stop all the lab rats they've tried it on from dying because they felt like they were drowning. For two hours.
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #604 on: October 17, 2011, 05:36:03 pm »

There's such a thing as parentheral nutrition. And gastrostomized people are fed a nutritional gruel directly into the stomach via a tube. So maybe something akin (though probably not a pill) could be managed. They're not supposed to be long term solutions, though (and gastrostomies in particular are used in palliative care for terminals, for the most part.)
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sluissa

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #605 on: October 17, 2011, 05:41:54 pm »

Siquo, I'd like you to tell me where the mine/recycling plant is where they got the copper for your motherboard wiring. Then I would also like, with photographic, or video proof, for you to show me that the workers there are treated well and that the mining methods are ecologically sound.

Now, repeat that for every single component of every single item that you use in your life. From the smallest pen or that cracker you eat all the way up to your method of transportation. Also consider the items that are essentially a monopoly where you don't have a reasonable alternative in your area.
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mainiac

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #606 on: October 17, 2011, 05:43:09 pm »

Bullshit.  Not everybody has equal amounts of influence in our system.  Not even remotely.
True, some people have more influence. By what god-given quality? Money? Who gave them that money?
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the normal people.
By which you mean "people like me". But the point is, there's no "them". No Big Man Behind The Curtain. They're all little guys, too, blaming the guys even bigger than them. And so on and so forth, until you run into a few guys who run all the shit in the world, and they're just afraid to lose their position to all those lesser guys barking at their shins, so they're busy making themselves look good to eachother and to us in the media, and we all love it. We eat it up and have another hotdog.

Did I say man behind the curtain?  No, I said rich people with rich friends who get their friends to donate money to buy ad spots.  They exist.   I don't need to imagine bad guys, I am busy enough fighting real life not evil people who are just assholes.
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Descan

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #607 on: October 17, 2011, 05:48:26 pm »

As I keep saying, you -would- have a bulking material in this situation. The pill is just for the nutrients, some sort of protein shake or bulk meat for the protein and calories you need to fill out would also be required.
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Chaoswizkid

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #608 on: October 17, 2011, 06:46:18 pm »

It's pretty evident who is at fault in this crisis, and it's not us
That's what we all say. Who took out those mortgages? Wanted to live big for little money? We all do, that's who.

Who took out those mortgages? People who went to the banks and were told that, after a financial assessment, it'd be perfectly okay for them to borrow money to pay for a home that's worth 200%+ of the cost of construction. Considering that they did not have a degree in economics, and that "This guy telling me this is just like any other guy, getting paid to do a good job", they took out the loan.

We all want to live big for little money, but don't you think it's a bit wrong to blame mass ignorance when the trust was placed in the people who supposedly knew what they were doing? Wait, they did know what they were doing. They did exactly what they wanted to do. So now you're saying that, in order to not be deceived, everyone must be made acutely aware of how exactly economics works, the fluctuations and factors of the housing market, as well as how the entire banking system operates? Must we all become bankers in addition to whatever actual profession we choose, just to make sure that no banker will actively lie to us since they'd lose every ounce of business?

It's unreasonable for each individual person to try to hold accountable the source of every thing they use and consume on a daily basis in this culture. That's why we have governments and regulatory agencies.
Impractical, yes, but not unreasonable. It's still your fucking responsibility. If we'd all just try a little harder to at least find out where the lettuce is from? I blame nobody taking responsibility for anything anymore. I caused this crisis.

My bad, I didn't include an intense study of agriculture with economics. However, you're going beyond agriculture and into geopolitics with your implications, yes? You're probably not even talking about agriculture either, but with how agricultural products are produced under what worker conditions and with what chemicals.
So what you're saying is that the other guy, who is just like us and is working just as hard to keep up his lifestyle, is doing his job in the FDA and in the DoA and in the State Department? I thought their job was to figure those things out so we didn't all have to constantly keep up with it. They're elected and hired for that, after all. But you've got to be saying he's doing his job somehow, and simultaneously not. You can't say you can't blame them when you're saying that it's our collective responsibility to do their job for them. Especially not if we're paying them to do it.

Many of the little people are struggling to do anything more than survive.
What, can't afford a proper HD and had to go for an HD-ready tv? Poor guys.

If one lived in the street and had to fight for scraps, that's getting close to survival. Survival rates for homeless people in the USA are still pretty high, so even being that low can't be that bad.

It's all so relative, but is nobody willing to see that it's relative for the other guy as well?

Yes, 'survival' in the terms that it was used is definitely relative compared to people who must hunt or farm their own food. I can't speak for the homeless and unfortunates in big cities, but have you been into the true rural backwoods of this country? People try to live an honest life, working off of land that's been owned for generations or bought dirt-cheap when it was possible or don't actually own the deed to the land, but it's so secluded no one cares. They hunt and kill for their food, and yeah, they might make some money here and there, but hardly enough to buy their children new clothes every year for school (of which they only have because it's a federal program) once taxes are collected, miscellaneous supplies are bought, and gas is paid for.

Alternatively, you could take a look at the people who live absolutely miserable lives in state-funded under-income housing in small towns, or even again in the backwoods, where the primary source of income is selling drugs, prostitution, or making moonshine. The town where I'm from had a low-income housing area that was busted a few years back, and one of those arrested was an elderly retired woman that could either afford to eat or hardly afford her medication, so she chose both by selling whatever extra medication she could get or whatever she could lie about. Did she live the big time? Did she have an HDTV? No, she got to eat a decent dinner, maybe buy a bit of useless junk to make her house not seem so empty and cold, and got to live a little longer. Hell, she might even be able to travel somewhere! That's not the only story either; her situation is not a unique one.

Sure, even the homeless in big cities in America have it better than people who live out of crude shelters in areas of Africa, for example, since homeless Americans can go and beg for money and food and might not just be left to die, and maybe to find some shelter that will take them in. At least the people in Africa don't have to worry about finding a meal or a place to sleep in a concrete jungle surrounded by the product of hundreds of billions of dollars. It's like being taunted by a feast you can't have because you can't find a job because you can't buy job-worthy clothes because you don't have money because you don't have a job.

Do we have it harder than people in Africa? No. Is our quality of life better than Africa's? Yes. Has our quality of life, that is, nutritionally decreased over time? Yes. Has the quality of life nutritionally decreased over time in Africa? Doubtful. It's probably increased due to increasing amounts of support, although there are/were some nasty droughts over there (and not taking into account warzones and mass-killings). Still, the change is probably going to be negligible.

So if you agree that it's relative, shouldn't you agree we should be upset that the quality of our lives is decreasing relative to how it was years ago? But you're saying that it's relative for 'the other guy', who has so much money they can buy whatever quality of life they want for themselves and their children and their grandchildren, and have accounts set up such that their progeny will always have enough money to never 'go without'? If our quality of life is relative to theirs, and over time ours has gotten worse and theirs better, then isn't there a fundamental problem with what you're saying?
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Siquo

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #609 on: October 17, 2011, 06:49:32 pm »

Siquo [etc]
I know, believe me, I do. I stop to think about this shit ALL the time, and I'm not perfect either. My ignorance is killing me, and i'm reading and joining organisations and doing everything I can to be as informed a consumer as I can be, and try to consume as little as possible. My computer is one of the few things I bought "new" from the store, most stuff in my house is second-hand (or higher numbers, even), we recycle as much as they'll let us, and don't throw things away but if they're still useable give them to those who have even less. I spend a disproportionate amount of money on organic/fairtrade food, and always check where it's from. If it's been on a plane, I'm not buying it. Of course it's hard to get by, and we've got to budget everything as well, but I won't think for a minute that my life is hard.

Who isn't surviving? Every person denied life saving medical care. Every person who chooses not to get treated or diagnosed because they can't afford the co pay and then dies. Every soldier sent over seas to fight a profitable war. Every person who bleeds to death waiting for emergency responders because the neighborhood they live in is ignored. Children living in poverty suffer starvation and malnutrition related illnesses in America today and some of them die. These are not isolated incidents.
No, but comparing that to how the rest of the world is doing is still tasteless. "Some of them die"?!? SOME? If you've still got the strength to dig holes for your own dead children to be buried in, you're not that bad off, compared to a lot of other people. You want to talk about absolutes? Then fix the bottom first.

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No I am not willing to make excuses for tyrants, psychopaths, manipulators and abusers by seeing how it is "relative" for them as well. Morality is not relative.
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Osmosis Jones

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #610 on: October 17, 2011, 07:03:43 pm »

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Morality is not relative.

It really is. If it wasn't, this wiki article would be a damn sight shorter. Many examples exist of there being two views, equally opposed, that people on either side see as perfectly moral. As morality isn't inscribed into the underlaying universe, the only way we have judging it is be comparison to our own beliefs. Ergo, it is relative.
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Bauglir

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #611 on: October 17, 2011, 07:12:11 pm »

Morality can be absolute without being universal. For instance, the same hypothetical action can be murdering a child and saving a small town. Each of these aspects can be argued to have an absolute value of good or evil, while people might still argue about whether the overall deed was good or evil. You'll get people shouting at each other, "But he's a child murderer!" and "But he saved all of us!"

There's no relativity here (at least not in the usual usage), because it doesn't necessitate that the value of each is arbitrarily defined by culture. What I'm saying is, examples of two opposed views being seen as perfectly moral doesn't actually rule out absolute morality, just universal absolute morality.[/my contribution to the derail]
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Nadaka

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #612 on: October 17, 2011, 07:16:26 pm »

No. Morality is not relative. When two people substantially disagree on a moral question, one or both of them is partally, or in whole, wrong.
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kaijyuu

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #613 on: October 17, 2011, 07:19:55 pm »

If Morality wasn't relative, philosophers wouldn't have been pointlessly debating it since forever.

People assign their own arbitrary values to things, and the generally accepted method is to find a compromise, rather than determine who's value scale is "right."
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #614 on: October 17, 2011, 07:21:01 pm »

I think an action's morality can be absolute in relation to it's own morality system.

Morality is certainly not objetive, though.


( I think Bauglir was arguing the same before)
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