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[Nadaka]

Sure, the people are to blame. And some people share disproportionately in the blame but not the consequences.

Who is the greater villain? The person destroying the system, the person who is fooled into supporting the person destroying the system or the person trying to save it with their limited means?

[ChairmanPoo]

My ass. There's not much choice for the mainstream members of society in that regard. Unless you opt to shun most of civilization's goods altogether.

[scriver]

There's plenty of less morally dubious goods around. And for the stuff for which there aren't... Well, maybe those are things you could do without. You don't have to live in luxury.

[mainiac]

This is democratic capitalism. You vote both with your wallet and your vote. Take some fucking responsibility already, instead of clamoring for "the other people" to fix it. There is no evil endboss at the end of the game.

We're the evil ones, trying to get by.

Bullshit.  Not everybody has equal amounts of influence in our system.  Not even remotely.  I worked my ass off trying to improve the system last election spending every day for three months knocking on doors and doing various other political related activities.  But my impact was far, far less the any one of a number of rich people in my district who convinced their rich friends to donate money for ad spots.  If a normal person like myself can devote months of his life to improving the system and not have as much impact, then it's simply not fair to blame the normal people.

If you own 5% of a company but nobody else owns more then half a percent, you have effective control of that company, majority rules be damned.  It's not about the amount of control, it's the concentration of it.

[Siquo]

There's plenty of less morally dubious goods around. And for the stuff for which there aren't... Well, maybe those are things you could do without. You don't have to live in luxury.

Exactly, it's all just a lot more expensive, and a lot less attractive-looking. I sin, too, as little as possible, just like everyone else, we all just have different values of "possible".

Sure, the people are to blame. And some people share disproportionately in the blame but not the consequences.

Who is the greater villain? The person destroying the system, the person who is fooled into supporting the person destroying the system or the person trying to save it with their limited means?

"The other guy", you know, "that one, over there, who is not me". Those bankers are people, too. With bills to pay and lifestyles to maintain. And before you go "yeah but their lifestyles are disproportionately rich compared to mine", so is yours compared to, say, the average world citizen. If you're not willing to give up at least 50% of your income, why should they?

Bullshit.  Not everybody has equal amounts of influence in our system.  Not even remotely.

True, some people have more influence. By what god-given quality? Money? Who gave them that money?
Power is something you can give, not take.

the normal people.

By which you mean "people like me". But the point is, there's no "them". No Big Man Behind The Curtain. They're all little guys, too, blaming the guys even bigger than them. And so on and so forth, until you run into a few guys who run all the shit in the world, and they're just afraid to lose their position to all those lesser guys barking at their shins, so they're busy making themselves look good to eachother and to us in the media, and we all love it. We eat it up and have another hotdog.

[SalmonGod]

Most workers aren't paid enough to afford less morally dubious goods, and less dubious sources aren't large enough to support the population.

We're raised from birth to believe that voting is our input to society, and then we're given a selection of candidates hand-picked by the same powers that exploit us.  There's a gigantic media machine that marginalizes, demonizes, and even criminalizes those who aren't.

The thing we're most to blame for how easily we're mislead and convinced not to properly communicate with each other.  If people didn't feel so isolated or cynical, we'd be able to smash through most of these problems overnight.  That's the main goal of protest - to open up proper communication.

[sluissa]

You will always have sources of goods that claim to be "the more moral choice" to get a certain good. I forget the source, but a few years back, wal-mart was starting to sell jewelry that it advertised as having raw materials sourced from places that didn't promote harmful mining techniques or bad labor practices and where the proceeds didn't go to fund wars. The problem was, they never did any research into it. They simply took the word of the suppliers that all of this was true. All it would have taken is to send a single person to check out these sources, to just take a look and it would have been obvious. As a result, the claims they made meant nothing.

You get to the point where you have to spend hours on research just to figure out where the ingredients for a salad come from. If it's even possible to figure out the sources of every one of them and you don't run into any roadblocks or false information. Even then, there's still no way to be sure unless you personally visit the farm of every head of lettuce, every carrot, every radish. The olive oil in your dressing, the garlic and herbs used to flavor that dressing. The dairy farm used to create the cheese and milk that go into the dressing and on top of the salad.

With the case of the salad, you have a somewhat easy alternative... grow your own produce. No, it's not as easy as ignoring it. But it's easier than trying to do all of what I just said. There are things which are simply impossible for the common person to do at home though. Greenpeace every year rates the various large technology companies on their environmental friendliness based on their manufacturing techniques, waste disposal procedures and the actual parts that go into the electronics (which will likely end up in a landfill one day.) Few of them ever get a decent rating, and yet, what can we do? It's hard to expect the average person to construct a working computer from raw materials. That's even assuming they can find a source for the raw materials that they can guarantee is environmentally and economically friendly. Just look at the guy who tried to build a simple toaster.  http://www.thetoasterproject.org/

It's unreasonable for each individual person to try to hold accountable the source of every thing they use and consume on a daily basis in this culture. That's why we have governments and regulatory agencies.

[Nadaka]

I don't give a damn if they are disproportionately rich. I care that they have disproportionate control of the government and are using that control to disenfranchise me and people like me for profit, while also destroying the world economy and my country for their own shortsighted gain.

Also: http://blogs.wsj.com/metropolis/2011/10/11/officers-arrest-sought-in-pepper-spray-incident/

[scriver]

Don't get me wrong. I think this thing is a great thing and might eventually mean something real. But that doesn't change that it all of ours - the little people's - fault that we ended up this way to begin with. And it's going to cost us to make things right.

[ChairmanPoo]

There's plenty of less morally dubious goods around. And for the stuff for which there aren't... Well, maybe those are things you could do without. You don't have to live in luxury.

Lol, you mean the fair market goods and such? Because the problem with those is that they're pretty much a luxury good, the way they are priced. You have to be quite affluent yourself to be able to afford them.

Don't get me wrong. I think this thing is a great thing and might eventually mean something real. But that doesn't change that it all of ours - the little people's - fault that we ended up this way to begin with. And it's going to cost us to make things right.

My ass. The little people, as you call them, did not entertain themselves by turning subprime mortgage packages into slightly more pallatable, but nt less poisonous, ones, and selling them around. It's pretty evident who is at fault in this crisis, and it's not us

[Nadaka]

Don't get me wrong. I think this thing is a great thing and might eventually mean something real. But that doesn't change that it all of ours - the little people's - fault that we ended up this way to begin with. And it's going to cost us to make things right.

Many of the little people are struggling to do anything more than survive. It is more than a little facetious to say to someone giving everything they have "its your fault you didn't fight for other people to be better off" when doing that means they loose the few creature comforts they manage to eek out and possibly their means of survival (and resulting in their death).

I still wear clothes that I had 20 years ago. I've spent decades saving every penny for necessities because I grew up hungry. Only now am I in a place where I am not terrified every single day of being unable to survive. Only now do I have the basic security I need to stand up and expend the energy to say that this is not right. I have had a far harder life than most, and I have far more will than most. I should not have had half the hardships I have faced. I should have never had to go hungry, I should never have had to worry about being homeless, I should never have had to choose between seeing a doctor and paying the utilities, I should have never had to struggle and in-debt myself for education. Its to late for the world to make that up for me, but if it can be made better for others just now facing these crisis's for the first time, I'll be damned if I don't try to help.

[Chaoswizkid]

You are right, these protests won't just turn violent, it will take the murder of protesters at the hands of the authorities for that to happen. I am not as confidant as you that that will not happen in the US, and I am absolutely certain we will not put up with as much suppression as many of those countries.

I'd like to think we've come along way from what happened at Kent State. Right now we have police brutality, which is almost just as bad, but low-key enough that the public outcry is minimal.

[Siquo]

It's pretty evident who is at fault in this crisis, and it's not us

That's what we all say. Who took out those mortgages? Wanted to live big for little money? We all do, that's who.

It's unreasonable for each individual person to try to hold accountable the source of every thing they use and consume on a daily basis in this culture. That's why we have governments and regulatory agencies.

Impractical, yes, but not unreasonable. It's still your fucking responsibility. If we'd all just try a little harder to at least find out where the lettuce is from? I blame nobody taking responsibility for anything anymore. I caused this crisis.

Many of the little people are struggling to do anything more than survive.

Oh, now this is pissing me off. Which one does the "little guy" look like? (I just got that randomly off of Google, btw, no blog affiliation whatsoever).
Survive?! In the USA? What, can't afford a proper HD and had to go for an HD-ready tv? Poor guys.

If one lived in the street and had to fight for scraps, that's getting close to survival. Survival rates for homeless people in the USA are still pretty high, so even being that low can't be that bad.

It's all so relative, but is nobody willing to see that it's relative for the other guy as well?

[Nadaka]

Who isn't surviving? Every person denied life saving medical care. Every person who chooses not to get treated or diagnosed because they can't afford the co pay and then dies. Every soldier sent over seas to fight a profitable war. Every person who bleeds to death waiting for emergency responders because the neighborhood they live in is ignored. Children living in poverty suffer starvation and malnutrition related illnesses in America today and some of them die. These are not isolated incidents.

No I am not willing to make excuses for tyrants, psychopaths, manipulators and abusers by seeing how it is "relative" for them as well. Morality is not relative.

[Bdthemag]

Oh, now this is pissing me off. Which one does the "little guy" look like? (I just got that randomly off of Google, btw, no blog affiliation whatsoever).
Survive?! In the USA? What, can't afford a proper HD and had to go for an HD-ready tv? Poor guys.

So your saying if were not suffering from malnutrition, we're all fine and should stop complaining. Im not sure if you know what its like to barely get by every month pal.