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[Vester]

The NYPD be populated by corrupt and unethical police officers, but it's not populated by murderers. Theoretically.

If the protesters won't back down from tazers and tear gas...

Then that's the choice they make. The other side has shown itself willing to use force. The protestors can either back down or keep on trucking.

This is probably going to shock you, but I have no problem with them curtailing personal freedom as long as they aren't shooting people.

Then you and I have fundamentally opposed views on how the world should be, and we thus have nothing to discuss.

Yes, well, come back when you've had to deal with an actual sequence of murderous strongmen in the seat of the President.

[Vector]

I understand it's not anything near as bad as it could be, but at the same time I don't think it's anything near as good as it should be in a moral (rather than "only" functional) society.

[Vester]

I understand it's not anything near as bad as it could be, but at the same time I don't think it's anything near as good as it should be in a moral (rather than "only" functional) society.

I know that, but sometimes we don't get what's good, or right, and just have to settle for what works.

[Vector]

You have a very good point, there.

[ChairmanPoo]

Yes, well, come back when you've had to deal with an actual sequence of murderous strongmen in the seat of the President.

And your point is? By your logic, you have no right to complain about murderous strongmen in the seat of the President. "Come back after having endured Idi Amin for a couple of years."
TL, DR: that in other parts of the globe people have it worse does not make abuses in the west right.

[Vester]

Yes, well, come back when you've had to deal with an actual sequence of murderous strongmen in the seat of the President.

And your point is? By your logic, you have no right to complain about murderous strongmen in the seat of the President. "Come back after having endured Idi Amin for a couple of years."
TL, DR: that in other parts of the globe people have it worse does not make abuses in the west right.

Yes, that would do me a little good too. It's about perspective, which is what being ruled by murderous strongmen (or women) will give you.

EDIT: which is to say, I'd defer to someone who had endured Idi Amin for a couple of years.

[ChairmanPoo]

I wouldn't. As I said, that some people have it worse, doesn't make lighter abuses elsewhere right.

[Vector]

I'm complaining not because I think this is a ridiculous, unbearable, impossible situation, but because I think we can and should do better.  Or at least try.

So, I will certainly cede to Vester or others when it comes to substantive discussions of police/governmental brutality, but all the same I think there is no fundamental harm in trying to improve a pretty good deal.

[kaijyuu]

Spoiler: Irrelevant musing (click to show/hide)

Re: Perspective. Seeing the world through other people's perspectives can be enlightening and whatnot, but don't do that so much you can no longer see your own perspective. Your world might not be as shitty as someone else's under Idi Amin or whoever, but that doesn't make your distress any less valid. It does mean their concerns should ideally take precedence, but not that yours should be ignored or deemed irrelevant.

If you're an arbiter (or have the power to be one), look at every side. If not, well, your responsibility lies with your own concerns.

[Vester]

Spoiler: Irrelevant musing (click to show/hide)

Re: Perspective. Seeing the world through other people's perspectives can be enlightening and whatnot, but don't do that so much you can no longer see your own perspective. Your world might not be as shitty as someone else's under Idi Amin or whoever, but that doesn't make your distress any less valid. It does mean their concerns should ideally take precedence, but not that yours should be ignored or deemed irrelevant.

If you're an arbiter (or have the power to be one), look at every side. If not, well, your responsibility lies with your own concerns.

But that's relevant.

[SalmonGod]

Here's some relevance for you.

Our government bears a lot of responsibility for other people having to suffer strongman dictatorships.  So while we may not be the ones directly suffering under them, we have arguably even greater responsibility to fight against those circumstances.

Anyway, I went to the Occupy Indy event for a couple hours.  The livestream wasn't up when I got there, and by the time I was aware that it was, it was recording a series of speakers addressing the whole assembly.  So if anyone was watching for me, sorry about that.  I hung out for a while and left when my kids had been hyper and causing a disturbance for too long.  Everyone there seemed very committed and energized.  I hope they can keep it up, and will be making more visits and donations to help them along.

[Vester]

Our government bears a lot of responsibility for other people having to suffer strongman dictatorships.  So while we may not be the ones directly suffering under them, we have arguably even greater responsibility to fight against those circumstances.

Years ago, something along this vein was one of main rationales behind the anti-imperialist groups in America - should a former colony of an oppressive Empire itself be responsible for imposing its will on subject peoples?

(Of course my favorite rationale was always one of the isolationist ones: DEER TAKEN AHR JAHBS. Probably because I was pleasantly surprised to learn it was around even at the turn of the century.)

[Vector]

That one has always been around.  "No Irish Need Apply," anyone?

[Vester]

Yeah, but then the "little brown brothers" got thrown into the mix. I mean, if they weren't even giving their blacks and irish folks equal treatment (I remember an anthropology study which demonstrated that, due to their skull shape, black men and irish men were closer to apes than the pure, white race) God knows why Cubans and Filipinos would be allowed to TEHK DEHR JAHBS.

[DJ]

So I guess we should all just give up on improving our lives in all of their aspects?