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Author Topic: Occupying Wallstreet  (Read 294963 times)

Aklyon

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #225 on: October 09, 2011, 10:24:34 am »

This seems related.
And then he blamed it on teh j00s.  :-\
You can't predict everything right all the time.
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RedKing

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #226 on: October 09, 2011, 11:10:05 am »

This seems related.
And then he blamed it on teh j00s.  :-\
You can't predict everything right all the time.
I'm just saying....using Ford to bolster your argument carries a certain tinge with it, even when unintended. Especially at a time when charges of anti-Semitism are already being lobbed at the movement.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #227 on: October 09, 2011, 12:11:03 pm »

The only way this could be a problem is if the NYPD had funding for a satellite laser and a complete and utter lack of morality.
They've pretty well shown the second one so far

"Die fascist pigs!" ::)

Making blanket statements about an entire police force is the kind of thing I'd expect from a poorly educated pothead. You're smarter than that.
You have been watching this thread, right? The NYPD has attacked and arrested hundreds of protestors by this point. What the hell will it take for them, as an organization, to be immoral in your eyes?
Hmm, Occupy Raleigh isn't on there either. I'll mention it at the GA today.
I was pretty shocked to find out Occupy Raleigh even existed.
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Bauglir

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #228 on: October 09, 2011, 12:27:36 pm »

"The NYPD is completely without morals" is a problematic statement for the same reason that "Women are weaker than men" is, and I hope you recognize that the problem with the latter has nothing to do with the lack of freedom of choice to be a woman, so the freedom of choice to be a cop isn't a relevant difference.

I'd be happy to agree with a statement like, "Too much of the NYPD is completely without morals."

Edited for clarity.
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kaijyuu

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #229 on: October 09, 2011, 01:09:40 pm »

I've already had this discussion with him in the rage thread, and I doubt you'll get anywhere :|
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #230 on: October 09, 2011, 01:28:13 pm »

To play devil's advocate: It's not the same to make blanket statements about a gender (eg, women) than about an institution (eg, the NYPD, or whatever). I'd say that if an organization is dedicated to immoral deeds, it's not incorrect to refer to it's stance as immoral, even if some (or even many) members of said institution don't like such things.

TL, DR: It's not the same to say that an organization's behavior is immoral as saying that every single cop ever is. The latter is closer to the above analogy about women, whereas the former is a statement about the overall behavior of a group.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2011, 01:30:50 pm by ChairmanPoo »
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SalmonGod

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #231 on: October 09, 2011, 01:47:34 pm »

I think the most accurate way to put it is cops are morally neutral.  They are people who have sold their morality to the state.  They don't get to make moral decisions anymore.  Their institution's purpose is to enforce a code that was developed by another group of people, and may be completely opposite to what they actually believe.  But this doesn't matter, they are getting a paycheck to do exactly what they are told, which is to force other people to do exactly as they are told.  If they bring too much personal judgement into the matter, they lose their jobs.  They can't simply choose not to enforce a law because they believe it is unjust.

There are cases where cops abuse their position to do immoral things or when they are ordered by their superiors to do things outside of the law in the course of serving the state... things such as the blatant disregard for people's rights at protests, and the Occupy movement hasn't seen nearly as much of this as your typical large protest does.  This is where the nature of their job becomes really obvious, because things like making up charges for the mass arrest of a couple hundred people that will have their charges dropped and released a week later is obviously wrong and an illegal abuse of the law... but those orders are still coming from people who have the power to fire them if they don't.

So what we get is an institution where people with a strong personal sense of morality will have to either abandon their job or that morality, and what is left are people who are either immoral or simply value their paycheck above their morality.
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LordBucket

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #232 on: October 09, 2011, 02:01:27 pm »

"The NYPD is completely without morals" is a problematic statement

I'd be happy to agree with a statement like, "Too much of the NYPD is completely without morals."

"The ocean is responsible for coastal erosion."

"Oh no, that's incorrect. Surely there are vast numbers of water molecules that have never come anywhere near dry land."

Both statements are correct, but the person who makes the second comes across as being deliberately snarky.

While I realize it's an unpopular concept during the current social climate, generally speaking it is valid to conceptualize group entities as singular without accounting for the individual behaviors of every discrete entity within the group. As the example above, it's valid to say "the ocean is responsible for coastal erosion" without accounting for the behavior of individual water molecules. It's valid to say that "humans eat meat" despite the fact that some individuals do not.

If one is interested in communicating rather than derailling discussion by selectively insisting on literal accuracy whenever someone makes an uncomfortable statement, then nitpicking as you are is unlikely to be productive.

Look at the original exchange you're commenting on:

The only way this could be a problem is if the NYPD had funding for a
satellite laser and a complete and utter lack of morality.
They've pretty well shown the second one so far
Making blanket statements about an entire police force is the kind
of thing I'd expect from a poorly educated pothead.

The way I read that, MetalSlimeHunt was not intending to convey that "every individual police officer is completely lacking morality." It was clearly a general statement, and in fact, not even his own general statement. He was loosely agreeing with a hypothetical scenario proposed sarcastically by Vester.

To respond to a loosely worded reply to a hypothetical statement by...

 * misinterpreting "complete" to mean every single one rather than as a general emphatic
 * completely missing that the person being corrected isn't even the person to use the word "complete"
 * insulting the person in question

...comes across as either deliberate trolling, topic derailment...or, as I suspect, is indicative of a mindset engendered by years and years of having been trained to ignore the bigger picture in favor of exceptions and minutia. To hop onboard with your corrections comes across about as well.

"Why no, armies don't kill people. Surely there are many cooks, administrators and mechanics within armies who've never shot a single person. Only some individuals within armies actually kill anyone."

"Why no, humans don't breath air. Surely over the course of an entire lifetime any individual human only breathes a very small minority of the sum total particles that could be described as air."

Do you see how this way of thinking isn't always conducive to clear thought?

kaijyuu

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #233 on: October 09, 2011, 02:41:22 pm »

Hrm, I agree with you Lord Bucket. However, when dealing with actual people, you must admit it's a very thin line to tread.

It's very easy to make the following leap of logic: Armies kill people, thus everyone in an army is a killer.
As you mentioned, there are cooks and medics and things that never kill anyone. At best, you could accuse them of being accessories to killing people. However, if you see someone in an army uniform walking down the street, do you have the integrity to not make the assumption that they're a killer? Do you expect others to?


Blaming an organization and blanket accusations toward every member of said organization are two different things, I agree. It's just a thin line to tread, one that needs to be tread with caution, and not reckless abandon.
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

PsyberianHusky

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #234 on: October 09, 2011, 03:20:35 pm »

Is there a correct way to deal with protesters? The whole idea of peaceful protest appears (from my perspective )  an attempt to force the police force into a no-win situation. Modern peaceful protesting appears to by design make the police look bad.

How can one deal with this? I have some sympathy for both sides of this issue, but imagine if this peaceful protest tactic was used for unreasonable demands.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #235 on: October 09, 2011, 03:23:45 pm »

The solution is for cops to stop violating people's first amendment rights by always roughing up protestors and acting surprised when a riot happens.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #236 on: October 09, 2011, 03:32:23 pm »

Is there a correct way to deal with protesters? The whole idea of peaceful protest appears (from my perspective )  an attempt to force the police force into a no-win situation. Modern peaceful protesting appears to by design make the police look bad.

How can one deal with this? I have some sympathy for both sides of this issue, but imagine if this peaceful protest tactic was used for unreasonable demands.

How does the use of agent provocateurs factor into your perspective, which have been standard procedure for over a decade?
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PsyberianHusky

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #237 on: October 09, 2011, 03:37:07 pm »

Is there a correct way to deal with protesters? The whole idea of peaceful protest appears (from my perspective )  an attempt to force the police force into a no-win situation. Modern peaceful protesting appears to by design make the police look bad.

How can one deal with this? I have some sympathy for both sides of this issue, but imagine if this peaceful protest tactic was used for unreasonable demands.

How does the use of agent provocateurs factor into your perspective, which have been standard procedure for over a decade?
I have not come to a conclusion, so I don't realy have a perspective on this, independent of these tactics I am asking this question.
What is the end-game of a peaceful protest if they do not get what they want?
Also that wiki article sited three examples, it seems a little rash to call that standard.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2011, 03:45:14 pm by PsyberianHusky »
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Jackrabbit

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #238 on: October 09, 2011, 03:41:09 pm »

More peaceful protests.
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PsyberianHusky

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #239 on: October 09, 2011, 03:49:11 pm »

I guess my question is/should denying public use of an area protected under free speech?
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