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[MrWiggles]

Something, that I find silly about the Protest on Wall Street, is that stock trading is done mostly by computer algorithms. Human trading has been a minority for a long while. So they're directing in part their protest at the minority of stock traders.

[Jackrabbit]

Trust me, you don't have it as bad as you think.

Oh, I know I don't.  I hate my life, and I'm one of the lucky ones.  This fact sickens me on a daily basis.  I can't live in a world like this, and the day I give up hope of it changing is the day I die.

This is an outlook I really hope I'd have if I ever faced serious adversity. Because it's the best outlook to have.

[SalmonGod]

Kael -- Would love to hear anything about your experiences at the San Fran event.

[KaelGotDwarves]

Reposting this relevant stuffs from the sad thread:

When the Conservatives, who have been nurturing and funding along with the Koch Brother's the "Tea Party movement" for the last two years, goes apeshit at an actual grassroots movement - you're probably on the right path.

Also - hehehe, the Fox News footage they refused to show on air, from another camera. Poor Fox Newsman didn't see it coming when he asked they guy those loaded questions.

Poor fox news conservatives, also mostly part of the 99% and most keep getting suckered into voting against their own interests because ooghabooga! SOCIALISTS! TERRORISTS! QUEERS! COMMIES! ATHEISTS! BABYEATERS! MUSLIMS! BLACK MAN IN OFFICE! GENERIC BROWN PEOPLE AND DIFFERENT THINGS I DON'T KNOW WHY I'M YELLING!

So many distractions. Sigh.

@Salmongod:
It was pleasant. Couple hundred people when I was down there in the morning, most gathered for the show. And a show there was - people chanting, talking, discussing, debating, hippies banging on drums, a surprisingly large display from Anonymous of the internet. They have really been active in SF lately. The affair was not organised very well but a good size turnout. More people were showing up when I left. The thing about public sentiment though... this did not seem like a usual protest to me. Or maybe I'm being optimistic. There is a deep rooted issue here, and it isn't going away anytime soon - it's just getting started.

Here's a video from the 29th - when 1000+ turned up.

[Heliman]

Poor fox news conservatives, also mostly part of the 99% and most keep getting suckered into voting against their own interests because ooghabooga! SOCIALISTS! TERRORISTS! QUEERS! COMMIES! ATHEISTS! BABYEATERS! MUSLIMS! BLACK MAN IN OFFICE! GENERIC BROWN PEOPLE AND DIFFERENT THINGS I DON'T KNOW WHY I'M YELLING!

Occasionally I wonder if that right there is all the republican party is, aside from being a front for big buisnesses in politics.

[SalmonGod]

The thing about public sentiment though... this did not seem like a usual protest to me. Or maybe I'm being optimistic. There is a deep rooted issue here, and it isn't going away anytime soon - it's just getting started.

I don't think it's optimism.  Actually, it could even be identified as pessimism.  More and more people are getting more and more desperate.  What else are they going to do?  Many of the stories I've read from people attending these things are about losing everything, trying for months to get back on their feet, and then giving up trying to live through a system that's already thrown them away.  I've heard people saying that the biggest recession is coming in 2012.  Things will get better or the movement will get stronger.  So... just getting started?  Definitely a pessimistic statement.

Thanks for sharing.

[RedKing]

Something, that I find silly about the Protest on Wall Street, is that stock trading is done mostly by computer algorithms. Human trading has been a minority for a long while. So they're directing in part their protest at the minority of stock traders.

It's not just stock trading. Wall Street is emblematic of a bigger problem of corporate excess and greed.

I'll give you a personal example of when I lost all faith in American capitalism (not that I was ever a rabid free-marketer to begin with):

I work for HP. When I came on in 2009 our CEO was Mark Hurd, who earned rave reviews for "making HP profitable". He did this by freezing all pay increases, enforcing mandatory pay cuts for many people, and reducing benefits for people at EDS, which HP had recently acquired. He made a token show of reducing his own pay as well. However, the Board of Directors compensated for this by voting him a pay raise equal to what he had cut. In other words, all a PR stunt.

We had to take constant training courses on corporate ethics and what we could and couldn't do, and all the things that could get us fired and/or prosecuted. Lo and behold in 2010, Hurd is caught falsifying personal expense reports to embezzle money to pay "hush money" to an HP consultant (and former softcore porn actress) so she wouldn't file a sexual harassment case against him. That's bad in and of itself. But the real kick in the cajones was that when he was forced to resign from HP, he received a $42.2 million  severance package. Which was equivalent to almost two years' worth of pay.

So let me get this straight...if I embezzled a few hundred dollars I'd be fired immediately, docked the amount from my final paycheck, and subject to civil prosecution. But if you're the CEO, play a little grab-ass, then embezzle $20,000 to cover up, then lie about the embezzlement....you skip out scot-free with a lovely parting gift equal to more money than a mensch like me will make in TWENTY LIFETIMES. 

Oh, and then promptly get hired by Oracle with a $220 million "signing bonus" and make $78 million in pay in your first year.


I was willing to accept Hurd as a vile anomaly. But let's look at his successor, Leo Apotheker. Leo was fired by SAP, and promptly hired by HP to 'restore investor confidence'. He did this by making a series of baffling executive decisions, such as pulling the plug on the HP TouchPad less than two months after it hit the market, and announcing abruptly that HP was getting out of the consumer PC market. The stock price plummeted 50%, and he was fired after only 10 months on the job. And then....(wait for it)...he receives a $10 million severance package. $1 million for each month on the job, and all he did was completely fuck everything up.

THIS IS NOT CAPITALISM.

Capitalism involves reward for risk. A small business owner is capitalist. He sinks his own money into his business, and he enjoys the rewards if it works out, and suffers the loss if it fails.

CEO's and investment bankers and hedge fund managers....these motherfuckers are insulated from risk. They get paid ludicrous amounts of money regardless of results. They're playing goddamn Monopoly with other people's money. THIS HAS TO STOP.

In Japan, executives that fucked up this badly would commit suicide. In China, the government would kill or imprison them. Frankly, I'd be happy with either option at this point.

[Angle]

Heres a rant I wrote recently. It's a little disorganized, but I think it makes some important points.

Spoiler: Random Political Thoughts (click to show/hide)

A few thoughts... We can all agree that corporations suck, right? Whether its the constant squeezing, the blatant disregard for safety and decency, or any of the other billion reasons, they're just no good. So what do we do? We can smash them to pieces, but this will merely trade one problem for another. Instead of having corporations doing their jobs poorly, we'll have a big gaping hole in our society, not doing those jobs at all. So we need to replace those corporations with something. But what? We could try non-corporate businesses, but as the robber barons of the nineteenth century demonstrate, that doesn't change much. We could try a centrally planned economy, but as history demonstrates, those don't work well, even in the best of situations. An economy is just to complex to be centrally managed. This is a problem that some corporations are having too - They're just too big to manage well.

 

So what do we do? Neither of those choices looks good. What I would propose is a hybrid approach - a system of decentralized, interlinked cells similar to modern business, with the difference being in their values and purpose. Where business exists only to profit, and seeks to contribute as little as it can to gain as much as possible, they would seek to fill their roles efficiently and effectively. To do the job right. Now, this would require a major change in our culture - where before, we worried about ourselves, we must now worry about everyone. Where before, we sought our own betterment, now we must seek the betterment of all in society. This is quite the change, I know - But I think it's worth it. Because without it, we're doomed. We humans are a social species - we depend on each other from the day we're born to the day we die. We need to recognize this, and accept it.

 

So what now, you may ask? You haven't given is any concrete ideas, only vague concepts and a speech. You're right. And that is because I don't have any concrete ideas. I'm only 17. I don't know exactly what to do. But! I know how to find out. We need dedicated discussion and experimentation in order to figure out how best to structure our society. And yes, it will take a lot of work. We may find ourselves being disappointed repeatedly when a beautiful new idea new fails to pan out. But we mustn't give up! We must learn from our mistakes. We must analyze them, figure out exactly what went wrong, and fix it. Try things out on a small scale so that if they fail, they don't hurt anybody. Keep careful record. And keep trying. Because if we want a better world, we're going to have to build it ourselves.

[SalmonGod]

Heres a rant I wrote recently. It's a little disorganized, but I think it makes some important points.

Spoiler: Random Political Thoughts (click to show/hide)

A few thoughts... We can all agree that corporations suck, right? Whether its the constant squeezing, the blatant disregard for safety and decency, or any of the other billion reasons, they're just no good. So what do we do? We can smash them to pieces, but this will merely trade one problem for another. Instead of having corporations doing their jobs poorly, we'll have a big gaping hole in our society, not doing those jobs at all. So we need to replace those corporations with something. But what? We could try non-corporate businesses, but as the robber barons of the nineteenth century demonstrate, that doesn't change much. We could try a centrally planned economy, but as history demonstrates, those don't work well, even in the best of situations. An economy is just to complex to be centrally managed. This is a problem that some corporations are having too - They're just too big to manage well.

 

So what do we do? Neither of those choices looks good. What I would propose is a hybrid approach - a system of decentralized, interlinked cells similar to modern business, with the difference being in their values and purpose. Where business exists only to profit, and seeks to contribute as little as it can to gain as much as possible, they would seek to fill their roles efficiently and effectively. To do the job right. Now, this would require a major change in our culture - where before, we worried about ourselves, we must now worry about everyone. Where before, we sought our own betterment, now we must seek the betterment of all in society. This is quite the change, I know - But I think it's worth it. Because without it, we're doomed. We humans are a social species - we depend on each other from the day we're born to the day we die. We need to recognize this, and accept it.

 

So what now, you may ask? You haven't given is any concrete ideas, only vague concepts and a speech. You're right. And that is because I don't have any concrete ideas. I'm only 17. I don't know exactly what to do. But! I know how to find out. We need dedicated discussion and experimentation in order to figure out how best to structure our society. And yes, it will take a lot of work. We may find ourselves being disappointed repeatedly when a beautiful new idea new fails to pan out. But we mustn't give up! We must learn from our mistakes. We must analyze them, figure out exactly what went wrong, and fix it. Try things out on a small scale so that if they fail, they don't hurt anybody. Keep careful record. And keep trying. Because if we want a better world, we're going to have to build it ourselves.

You might enjoy this.

[Aqizzar]

Some interesting news on the New York marches.  The seven hundred people arrested en masse at the Brooklyn Bridge are filling a class action lawsuit against the NYPD, claiming the mass arrest as entrapment.  The story goes that the NYPD told the protesters to go out on the bridge, then blocked them from moving forward or leaving, then arrested them all as fast as possible on Disorderly Conduct charges for blocking the roadway.  The police claim otherwise.

From further down the text, there's also this-

Earlier today, a federal judge declined to block police from using unionized city bus drivers to transport protesters arrested at demonstrations, denying their union’s request for an immediate injunction while the lawsuit proceeds.

U.S. District Judge Paul Engelmayer rejected the request by the Transport Workers Union Local 100, which sought to bar police from forcing New York City Transit Authority bus drivers to take protesters to holding facilities. The judge didn’t rule on the union’s request for a permanent injunction.

Transport Workers Union Local 100 drives the city buses and such, and their chapter president is going around on TV saying his union is fed up with how they've been treated by the NYPD, and how they've seen the protesters treated as their buses have been commandeered as paddy wagons.  In response to the rejection, the president said his Local will henceforth be attending the protests themselves in an official show of support, and may even go on strike if ordered to transport mass arrests again.

[Jake]

Quick question. Anyone know what the legal ramifications would be if a cop starts pepper-spraying people without provocation and someone defended themselves with lethal force? Because honestly, in the unlikely event I bother going to any sort of demonstraion -I've watched two successive British governments blithely ignore too many of them to believe there's a point- I'll stick to peaceful protest right up until the police start violating their own use-of-force policies. After that, all bets are off.

[SalmonGod]

Well, now I know it's getting big.  The protests are making their way to Indianapolis this weekend, with 700 already supposedly attending.  I'm going to be watching for police and public attitudes towards them to see how big the risk will be.  I've never even heard of a protest in Indiana in my lifetime.  I have no idea how the police will react here.

[C27]

Just thought I'd share this. Like in the movie Network, mad as hell and not going to take it anymore.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meT8CJgEBQw

[Chaoswizkid]

Quick question. Anyone know what the legal ramifications would be if a cop starts pepper-spraying people without provocation and someone defended themselves with lethal force?

You are only (legally) allowed to use lethal force if there is a clear and present use of lethal force against you or anyone else, or if there is a clear and present threat of lethal force. For example, if someone pulls a gun on someone else, you are legally allowed to shoot and kill that person. However, if, say, you don't have a gun, and you instead rush them and wrestle the gun away, they are no longer threatening anyone with lethal force, and the use of lethal force is then illegal.

Because pepper spray is not considered lethal force, you cannot 'act in self defense' with lethal force. Above and beyond this, retaliating against a cop only justifies the use of force against you and you will receive charges for resisting arrest, assaulting a police officer, etc. In the chance that an investigation turns out that the cop wasn't doing his job, then you won't be charged for resisting arrest, not sure about assault. If lethal force was used, though, even if the cop was in the wrong, I'm pretty sure you're screwed. Don't do it.

If you're going to be arrested, get arrested without resistance and then make a huge deal out of it so it has to go to court. I'm hoping that all of these cases go onto court and NYPD gets hit HARD for what its been doing to the protesters. Maybe not NYPD as a whole, but definitely the ones who are just blatantly abusing the public in false justice.

[SalmonGod]

I have to say... at some point we have to accept that there will be conflict for there to be real change...

Standard procedure at every major protest has the invested interests (financial institutions, corporations, and politicians whose images and the smooth operations of their events are at stake) typically pay the city hosting the event large sums of money in anticipation of their legal costs, because they KNOW they're going to be violating people's rights in order to keep the protesters from causing any real trouble for anyone who really matters.  So police have the freedom to rough people up a bit and ignore proper legal procedures without any real loss in funds as a consequence.  The only thing it costs them is a little bit of time in court.

Most commonly there are raids on known squatting sites and gathering places a day or two in advance of the event where they seize all electronics to hamper organizational efforts and gather intel.  Then they do selective mass arrests to keep numbers low and break up key activity areas.  They arrest people on false charges, wait until the protest is over, and then drop the charges and release them.  Your typical national R or D party convention or WTO conference or the like sees a few thousand people held where ever they can find the space to hold them for a few days, just to get them out of the way.  They take their cases to court, get their settlements, and move on.  Come to think of it, I wouldn't be surprised if that's how many full-time activists who travel back and forth between these things sustain themselves.

The point is, being the perfectly behaved little victim so you can have a clean case on court is cute and will probably work out for you, but is hardly a disruption to the establishment.  Dealing with exactly that is a normal part of their operations.  Something about this has to change.

Do not think that I am encouraging anyone to fight police.  Don't.  I'm just trying to be informative.