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Author Topic: Occupying Wallstreet  (Read 297240 times)

Descan

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3015 on: April 17, 2012, 10:33:18 am »

I'm an average person and I like nuclear energy. Most of the people I know, unless they're outright oil-fanatics or green-fanatics, either don't care either way or like nuclear.

Maybe it's just where I live?
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mainiac

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3016 on: April 17, 2012, 10:45:11 am »

The average person is incredibly misinformed and biased about nuclear energy from decades of exposure to anti-nuclear media, propaganda and outright lies.

Is it maybe possible that you are looking at this through a lens of your own?

Because frankly you sound like the fox news crowd discussing liberals.  Just replace "nuclear energy" with something like public unions and anti-nuclear with something like education reform.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Nadaka

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3017 on: April 17, 2012, 11:01:24 am »

I am very much pro nuclear.

But there is a huge problem when any statistically significant amount of the population believes the following:

A nuclear meltdown can be as dangerous as a nuclear bomb going off.

Most nuclear plants will meltdown eventually.

Chernobyl level events are possible under normal operation of all nuclear plants.

Fusion power is a thousand times more dangerous than fission.

Living near a nuclear plant will cause mutations and cancer.

The Three Mile Island event was a "disaster".

There is no way to safely manage nuclear waste.
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MadocComadrin

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3018 on: April 17, 2012, 11:39:47 am »

I just had a discussion about this literally 2 hours ago. I had someone (sort of prickish) try to tell me that you can't recycle spent fuel--utter bullshit.
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mainiac

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3019 on: April 17, 2012, 02:41:07 pm »

I just had a discussion about this literally 2 hours ago. I had someone (sort of prickish) try to tell me that you can't recycle spent fuel--utter bullshit.

Have you ever had a three minute conversation with an average voter about taxes?  Or getting a goddamn bridge replaced?  You are acting as if the existence of idiots in the anti-nuclear crowd is somewhat of an anomaly.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Flying Dice

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3020 on: April 17, 2012, 03:20:03 pm »

I just had a discussion about this literally 2 hours ago. I had someone (sort of prickish) try to tell me that you can't recycle spent fuel--utter bullshit.

Have you ever had a three minute conversation with an average voter about taxes?  Or getting a goddamn bridge replaced?  You are acting as if the existence of idiots in the anti-nuclear crowd is somewhat of an anomaly.

That's if you can find a voter.  :P
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mainiac

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3021 on: April 17, 2012, 04:08:36 pm »

Zing!
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Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Mr. Palau

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3022 on: April 17, 2012, 08:47:11 pm »

I personally would much rather a random Joe over a nuclear engineer when deciding these things.  An average joe is coming at it tabula rasa or as close to that as you can expect.  A nuclear engineer is someone who is very much inclined towards nuclear energy.  It's the same reason that we don't compose juries of cops.

I can see the merits of soritition.  But the main appeal is that it's directly without filtering.  It's the only system that gives a millionaire and a hobo equal voice.  If you start biasing the system in favor of people who are members in good standing of elite fields you are merely replacing one oligarchy with another.  Much better to just go with proportional representation where there is at least an incentive to represent any view that isn't being represented.
Well, first of all to the it will just be an entire body concerned with only it's self interest, that is why I would want activists on such a board. So there is somewone, who maybe not knowledgeable, is virulently contesting the self interest of the Nuclear engineers. They are just more radical versions of average joes. An average joe also doesn't have the ability to become sufficently educated in a subject such as nuclear energy in a given amount of time to make a good decision. Proportional represntation would still allow people with no knowledge about nuclear energy to vote for politicians with explicit regulatory policies concerning nuclear energy, and thereby create a regulatory body that is ethier lacking in knowledge or is hampered by ideology.

Lemme point out that "What should be done" decisions don't generally require any sort of expert opinion, except when explicitly dealing with a highly technical topic. So for what I'm saying, you don't (for instance) need a bunch of generals deciding whether you go to war over some international incident, but you would want them for figuring out how you do it and what's a feasible option or acceptable cost. This is already what is done, by my understanding of the military, you basically just extend this principle to information technology, education, environmental regulation, etc. (EDIT: If it worked the way I'd like it to, which it doesn't since the "This is done in some areas already" part of my last sentence doesn't apply to the rest of this post) The non-experts contribution goes as far as, "Yeah, we think there needs to be less smog," and mutual veto power (the non-experts for impractical costs, the experts for impractical goals, though that's an extension of existing principle).

Also, everybody would get a pony because it is equally plausible and will probably work out about as well.
Yeah all regulatory bodies are already unelected, the commision via soritition would just remove any electoral check on the regulatory bodies. I would also argue that the equivlent of the congress (I.E. the committie made up of just average people) should only be allowed input into the budget process in terms of having to vote for any increase in marginal tax rates propesed by the budgetary committe (Which I think should be mostly economists with a minority of average joes, so the economists can eliminate any thing that is just purely distorting without any substantial benefit, like a subsidy for sugar beets. And the joes are just there...to... well I don't llnow give the people some sort of input?).

See I have faith that if we had a government composed of people with multiple conflicting interests, even if they aren't average joes, they would come to an solution aggreable to the people.
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sluissa

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3023 on: April 18, 2012, 08:50:39 am »

The problem is, someone will always find some common ground for them to work together on... for example, bribes.

Random people picked for the job aren't any less likely to take a bribe from an interest group. When you're offered a large sum of money to think one way, it's pretty easy to forget why you ever thought another way in the first place.
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mainiac

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3024 on: April 18, 2012, 10:32:07 am »

I think bribery is a very manageable risk simply because the potential bribe takers wouldn't have time to learn how to cover their tracks.  Additionally the bribers wouldn't have much time to sniff out who is susceptible to bribes and who is not.  Every time you approach someone you risk them blowing the whistle on you and creating a backlash against your cause.  What creates problems is having grey zones that let someone grow corrupt by degrees.
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Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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SalmonGod

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3025 on: April 19, 2012, 01:23:16 am »

The worst part about this is I'm not surprised.

So one officer responds to a call for help transporting a "mentally disturbed young man" to the hospital.  On the way, she calls for backup.  When they arrive, the two backup officers jump out of their cars and start beating up this guy.  The person they're beating up is not actually doing anything wrong, is not armed, does not resist, and is not violent, according to the article.  Only suspicious note is that the article never explains the "mentally disturbed" description.  The way it's described, this seems like a completely random assault by these officers.  The first cop pulls her colleagues off of the guy and successfully breaks up the fight.... and soon faces a departmental trial declaring her "psychologically unfit" for police work.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2012, 01:33:21 am by SalmonGod »
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Bauglir

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3026 on: April 19, 2012, 01:25:39 am »

Link's broken (looks like it got cut off midway through, but I can't find the article skimming through the recent ones on the site's main page), but that sounds both awful and unsurprising.
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Descan

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3027 on: April 19, 2012, 01:31:30 am »

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SalmonGod

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3028 on: April 19, 2012, 01:33:44 am »

Fixed it in my post, too.  Don't know how that happened.
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Glowcat

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #3029 on: April 19, 2012, 01:47:16 am »

http://www.wpix.com/news/wpix-officer-may-be-fired-after-stopping-beatdown,0,2795580.story

Quote
Tasca's dashboard camera captured her as she attempted to stop two officers from beating an emotionally disturbed young man. Just days after the incident, she was told she was being suspended with pay. A year later, her trial is about to begin as the Bogota PD seeks to fire her.

In Bogota, officers control whether or not their dashboard camera rolls. Fortunately, when Officer Tasca responded to a call in April 2011, she clicked her unit "on." The black-and-white tape captures it all--a mother, Tara, screaming for police to stop punching her son on their front lawn. She had called to have her emotionally disturbed son Kyle taken to the hospital. Bogota police responded while waiting for the ambulance. Tasca was the sole officer on the road that day, so she called for back-up according to protocol. Ridgefield Park police then sent two officers. Tasca had just completed her state-mandated training for working with emotionally disturbed citizens.

Tasca described what we see on the videotape: "The Ridgefield Park officer automatically charges and takes him down to the ground. I was quite shocked. As he's doing that, another Ridgefield Park officer flies to the scene in his car, jumps out and starts punching him in the head."

On the tape you can hear Tara, the mother, and Kyle, her son, screaming, "Why are you punching him?" and "Stop punching me!"

The two Ridgefield Park Sergeants are never heard refuting the claims that they punched the 22 year-old man as he was waiting for an ambulance.

But let's ignore another horrible example of why USA's Law Enforcement is filled with corrupt thugs by making vague reference to the good cops, like Ms. Tasca.

Nope, even that sarcastic comment wasn't enough to release the seething RAEG I feel from this sort of bullshit and the people who persist in defending the culture of assholes by focusing more on shutting down those who point out these abuses rather than those perpetrating them. I'm gonna go let off some steam.
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