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[nenjin]

You guys need to tone it down a notch. Or three.

[GlyphGryph]

I'm honestly curious here - who needs to tone down what?

[DJ]

In short: if you're not a certified doctor you don't get to seek treatment. Just roll over and die already.

Or how about you take my statement as a call to action instead of attempting to write it off with poorly thought out sarcasm? What's happened to people now when such selfishness is rampant?

What action? And what selfishness? You're not being very clear here.

The reason why the American policial system is in such shambles is not because of the ever-present corruption and inability of politicians to do their job, it's because of the ineducated and foolish people within. Our government isn't the way it is by accident.

Are you suggesting that the overall education levels were higher in the past?

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Please note: My opinions on this subject are due to encounters with actual Occupy supporters and protesters. It may just be my town, but I ended up discussing a non-money based economy based on bartering and everyone getting treated fairly many multiple times, since when I'd get into the topic of changing things for the better they'd, for the most part, fall back on the shitty economic times. I only had two people describe to me an actual feasable plan, one gave me a summary on a pretty well thought-out Constitutional amendment. But he was a doctor.

See, I believe that the main problem here is egoism and people now looking for a new calling, a new Vietnam protest, a new Civil Rights movement, when the focus should be on improving what we have, not trying to tear it all down and begin anew, which many Occupy-ers advocate to the last man. The "awareness raising" being conducted by Occupy is pretty negligible because everyone already knows how ineffective and weak our government (especially the Local government) really is, as shown by my street's potholes that I will never see fixed until I buy my own asphalt mixer. Not to mention the income inequality, I wrote articles covering this in detail on my Senior year, actually.

I myself am a Far-Left type, but I see changes occurring in actual laws and codified legislation, not in morally ambiguous movements that can turn on a dime to any other ideological stance (See: Iran's revolution-turned into a Theocratic Empire) because the people are, as a rule, pretty easy to sway.

I just feel the energy is being wasted in a very bad way. The intentions are not what I dislike, it's the method. And, like I mentioned, I have found little to nothing in this 'movement' to pick out as a primary goal, let alone figure out what it's real impact is.

Just saying. I didn't call any of you Communists or Neo-Liberals. Only trying to expound on what I've experienced first hand, friends.

What action? And what selfishness? You're not being very clear here.

Are you suggesting that the overall education levels were higher in the past?

The action would be joining the Peace Corps, or Red Cross. Not standing in your town's plaza with 50+ different points written by different people that don't actually agree on more than 2-3 things (and on being there) policy-wise. That's where the selfishness comes in: They all want THEIR 'point' to be implemented, above all. Some want legalization, others want the government torn down ala Mousilinni (sp).

& No, DJ, I am not saying that at all. I'm saying the governance we have is due to the attitude and ignorance of the people, not because 'education' is the issue, since we're very poor at that anyways. You cannot have a sum better than all parts, and the meaning of that can apply to government as well.

[DJ]

Like I said, you don't have to be a doctor to complain when you hurt. Not having a solution should never be an obstacle to pointing out a problem.

And yeah, everyone knows that the government isn't doing a very job, but if you don't complain they'll just assume you're fine with it and nothing will ever change. The point of protesting is to show that you're in fact not fine with it, and that something needs to change. This prepares the ground for politicians who do have a plan for changing things for the better. I mean, would you campaign on an issue nobody cares about?

[GlyphGryph]

I think that's the key to keep mind. Occupy is not a solution, and it's not supposed to be - it is there, solely, to create an environment where real solutions are more likely to occur.

And it's worked! The dialogue has been shifting. Pols occasionally try to cater to them. The Overton window is shifting.

Occupy is not a solution - it's the sort of thing that makes a solution possible. And honestly it doesn't really matter if most of the activists are actually idiots for that to happen.

[SalmonGod]

Thank you.  Now we have some basis for actual discussion.

I myself am no borderline anarchist.  I am an actual anarchist, and I consider myself at least an occupy supporter.  I was never able to camp out, but I visited my local Occupy, hung out with them for hours on livestream, donated some stuff, kept very close track of events, and frequently spoken for the movement to various people.  I've actually not met another anarchist this entire time, and very few promoting communism.  Whenever I talk about my own ideas, I'm sure to include disclaimer that they're mine alone, and not representative of Occupy itself.

Personally, I do think we need to basically scrap the way our society is structured and start over.  I see the problems we face currently as a natural result of the underlying principles on which modern society is founded.  But that's just me.  I don't expect the Occupy movement to promote my ideas.  If it achieves some reform that brings relief to a lot of people, that's great.  Some breathing room is necessary before most people can be capable of giving much thought to deeper issues, anyway.

The movement itself has some concrete goals.  The main focus that everyone agrees on is reducing corruption.  There are multiple specific proposals that are near unanimously supported that have to do with this, such as reinstating Glass-Steagal, ending corporate personhood, reversing the Citizens United decision, and more progressive/consistently enforced taxation.  Even if these measures don't directly lead to many occupier's more personal visions, they're still widely agreed upon as good things.

And as others have already pointed out, the movement sprang up out of disillusionment with politics blatantly ignoring the people.  Its main purpose was to highlight such dysfunction and hypocrisy, and it did largely succeed at this.

The reason why the American policial system is in such shambles is not because of the ever-present corruption and inability of politicians to do their job, it's because of the ineducated and foolish people within. Our government isn't the way it is by accident.

When election systems are themselves corrupt and representatives are not held accountable for blatant criminality, this attitude is completely counter-productive.  The only recourse is to apply pressure via popular demonstration and civil disobedience, and to shift the attentions of national discourse away from the inclusive circle jerk of politicians and onto the marginalized struggles faced by ordinary people.

[ChairmanPoo]

http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2011/12/seasonal-flame-bait.html#more

[nenjin]

So this is weird.

I open that link.

Seconds later, I get a polling calling about my opinion of corporations.

The woman on the phone sounds like an automated response. Literally. Like each word was strung together on a recording. I'm so distracted by the robotic quality of her voice that I have a hard time even following her questions.

After 10 questions about civic activity, and 10 or so questions about where I get my news from, the robot lady told me thanks for my participation.

So apparently, if you're not actively part of politics or in civic organizations (but are a voter) they (corporations) don't really give a shit about your opinion of them.

[Duuvian]

After Receiving Bailout, GM May Move Volt Production to China

From the link:
What else was included in this deal? GM has agreed to effectively move all future EV development to China. It could also mean that production of the vehicle itself will be moved overseas.

“The Chinese government is pushing electrics with a subsidy that amounts to about $19,000 per car — but only if the car is made in China. No imports allowed,” writes Chris Woodyard of USA Today. “There also are tariffs on cars imported to China, which lawmakers argue are unfair and may violate world trade rules.”

Two final thoughts:  First, considering that all of GM’s EV development was financed with taxpayer dollars, it seems perfectly reasonable that many people are upset with the car manufacturer. On the other hand, given what appears to be GM’s failure to develop a successful, affordable and stable EV, one might feel compelled to say of the Shanghai deal, “They can have it.”

Second, given the fact that Federal government helped itself to millions and millions of taxpayer dollars under the pretense that it was going to combat high unemployment by creating “green jobs,” it would seem that moving research and development (and possibly manufacturing) overseas is slightly, well, counterproductive.

From https://www.uschina.org/public/991115a.html

Accelerated Auto Tariff Reduction. As part of the efforts to find "win-win" solutions to sensitive areas, China agreed to accelerated tariff reduction in exchange for a slightly longer phase-in period. This provides earlier market access with auto tariffs still being reduced from the current 100-80 percent to 25 percent by July 1, 2006.

Now: http://news.yahoo.com/china-us-auto-tariffs-sue-us-221305706.html

GENEVA (AP) — China's new import duties on U.S.-made vehicles are legal under international rules, and if the U.S. thinks otherwise it should sue, Beijing's top trade official said Thursday.

Chinese Commerce Minister Chen Deming described the duties on imported automobiles with engine displacements of over 2.5 liters as "normal trade remedies."

Under World Trade Organization rules, countries are allowed to impose punitive tariffs to offset damage from both dumping and subsidies, but aren't allowed to use import taxes to unfairly protect domestic industries from foreign competitors. [Should an international corporation be considered foreign to any country it operates in despite being headquartered in a different country?]

"If somebody begs to differ, the best solution is to invite the experts from the WTO to judge," Chen told reporters at a trade ministers' meeting in Geneva.

The office of the U.S. Trade Representative said is was "very disappointed" with China's decision Wednesday to introduce the tariffs, which range from 2 percent to 21.5 percent.

[nenjin]

Well there was money well spent.

Why are we investing in these "American" businesses again? So they can remain solvent long enough to ship everything but their corporate headquarters overseas?

[Frumple]

Why are we investing in these "American" businesses again? So they can remain solvent long enough to ship everything but their corporate headquarters overseas?

Wait, that wasn't the plan the whole time? I mean, I don't remember hearing anything about regulation to actually keep them around, so I figured that was kind of the implicit game plan.

[Eagle_eye]

plus, the HQ is going to Monaco, obviously.

[Montague]

Honestly, the US is losing to foriegn competitors because we are not on the same level playing feild as them. The US practices something like free-market capitalism and other nations like China, do not. They heavily subsidize domestic exports, manipulate to devalue their currency, states run industries, eschew enviromental or regulatory controls and wages are deliberately kept low. Its too lucrative for US industries to move their operations overseas to countries that don't play by the rules we have domestically.

Free trade and globalism is not the same thing as free market capitalism. Free market capitalism only works if every firm is more or less equal and competitive with each other. It doesn't work if you have honest firms competing with firms that use slave-labor, or firms that produce counterfeits of other firms products, or recieve heavy government subsidy or favortism. If our system is going to work we'd need to set tariffs or some other mechanism to keep jobs here.

I'd make a law that would impose import high penalties and tarrifs on countries with dissimilar economic systems from our own, with a rate or penalty porportion to the individual countries degree of dissimilarity. It could even refined to individual firms or products from the country, if they are heavily subsidized, for example. Similar countries, like Chile or Canada or Germany would have no penalty. Exceptions for dissimilarities like much higher domestic taxes (the opposite of a subsidy) would be irrelevant and not assesed a penalty, eg, Swedish exports are expensive and not terribly competitive in the first place, they don't need a penalty. Products from slave pens like China, Banglidesh, Pakistan or Malasyisa would be assessed higher ones.

If these countries want to do business in the US and compete with domestic firms then they need to have something like free market economic policies and similar wages, human rights records as the USA. I think that'd go a long way to stopping foriegn countries from exploiting us.

[SalmonGod]

We do this, actually... or used to.  They're called Countervailing duties.  It's my job to make sure those duties are included in the paperwork on applicable imports.

Except I'm not aware of any commodities right now that get them.  There used to be several, especially on cheap DRAM from a couple asian countries.  They've all been removed in the last few years.

We still have anti-dumping measures on a few things also, but they're almost as sparse and more loosely enforced than CVDs were.