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Author Topic: Occupying Wallstreet  (Read 297129 times)

mainiac

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2205 on: December 08, 2011, 10:13:25 am »

I'm sure you know better then every goddamn financier in the world.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Truean

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2206 on: December 08, 2011, 10:20:22 am »

I'm sure you know better then every goddamn financier in the world.

Please amplify your relaxed state.

You mean the ones who were so brilliant they got us into this mess? Dude you're sticking up for the wisdom of financiers in an Occupy Wall Street Thread? The thread pretty much devoted to protesting these people? We'll let you have another crack at that one if you want.

A loan guarantee is at heart cosigning on a loan. Legally, that is pretty much what it is. It's a question of priority and who pays in what order if stuff fails. First the primary borrower pays. If they can't, then the co signer or "guarantor"  pays.

On an issue I've fought and won lawsuits on, yeah, I believe I'm correct.... I know I can site a million cases on topic and if I have some time at the law library, I'll pull some up on Westlaw.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 10:31:23 am by Truean »
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mainiac

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2207 on: December 08, 2011, 10:33:46 am »

I wasn't talking about wall street.  The link I provided was to a very writer who lives in washington DC, who covers finance issues.

You can not take a loan guarantee and deposit it in an account that pays interest.  Seeing as that is the exact behavior that wall street was accused of doing, that's kinda an important distinction.  There are many, many more distinctions at play, but they are complicated so let's stick with the simple.

Going by the standard you set, the FDIC is currently bailing out anyone with a savings account to the extent of 10 TRILLION DOLLARS OMG!!!111!@!!!  Because we all have a free loan guarantee of 250k.  Funny, I don't feel like I have 250k to my name.  Please tell me, Truean, since you clearly know this so well.  How do I go about using those 250k dollars that apparently were given to me when I first opened a savings account?
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Duuvian

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2208 on: December 08, 2011, 10:44:56 am »

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Truean

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2209 on: December 08, 2011, 10:50:08 am »

I wasn't talking about wall street.  The link I provided was to a very writer who lives in washington DC, who covers finance issues.

You can not take a loan guarantee and deposit it in an account that pays interest.  Seeing as that is the exact behavior that wall street was accused of doing, that's kinda an important distinction.  There are many, many more distinctions at play, but they are complicated so let's stick with the simple.

Going by the standard you set, the FDIC is currently bailing out anyone with a savings account to the extent of 10 TRILLION DOLLARS OMG!!!111!@!!!  Because we all have a free loan guarantee of 250k.  Funny, I don't feel like I have 250k to my name.  Please tell me, Truean, since you clearly know this so well.  How do I go about using those 250k dollars that apparently were given to me when I first opened a savings account?

I'm not understanding why you're so ... excited, about this.

I've cited this simple wikipedia article a couple times. Very first sentence:

"A loan guarantee, in finance, is a promise by one party (the guarantor) to assume the debt obligation of a borrower if that borrower defaults."

$250K in savings account gua...? What? FDIC. Um, huh? FDIC. Federal DEPOSIT INSURANCE Corporation. Not, FLGC Federal Loan guarantee Corporation.

"Deposit Insurance" is not "Loan Guarantee." I can see how people think it's the same because the argument could be "well it's in case the bank fails," and your depositing funds in your savings account is a loan to the bank and that's why they pay you interest. Completely different set of rules.
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mainiac

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2210 on: December 08, 2011, 10:51:16 am »

The difference being...
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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GlyphGryph

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2211 on: December 08, 2011, 10:53:00 am »

That they aren't the same in any way?

A better argument on your front would be federal education assistance loans, which I believe are federally guaranteed.
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Truean

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2212 on: December 08, 2011, 11:52:36 am »

... I've got an appointment so let's make this real simple.

Let's assume you're entirely correct on every point. Let's give you the benefit of all reasonable doubts. Though I disagree with you, we will assume for the sake of argument that you are correct in all things here:

1.) That a Loan is not the same as a Loan guarantee;
2.) That Deposit Insurance under the FDIC is a loan guarantee.

Let's say, to error in your favor, that "only" 1.2 Trillion are actual loans and the rest of it is Loan Guarentees which are somehow different from loans. Let's assume that.

A.) That's still $1.2 Trillion in loans. This is an enormous number you can't ignore: a significant chunk of GNP.
B.) If deposit insurance is a loan guarentee, then that would mean you'd be looking at it like this.

i.) YOU the everyday consumer with a bank account are the creditor/lender making a loan to the bank.
ii.) The bank is the one borrowing money from you and that's why they pay you interest.
iii.) The government is the guarantor, which guarantees that you the lender to the bank (by virtue of your savings account on deposit) will not lose your investment (your savings) if the bank tanks. This is because the government as guarantor will pay you the money in your savings account up to $250K if the bank fails.
[Note, again, this ignores all differences between the FDIC and a loan guarantee in federal law].

Your article said, The Fed would have given out $7.7 trillion to banks only in the unlikely scenario that the banks asked for the maximum possible loans and that every one of them subsequently defaulted.

I've said it before, "UNLIKELY?" Because, that's, never happened recently. This attitude of invincibility, needs to end, now.... Too big to fail...? That means you're so big that you can fail but if you do, then you take the whole economy with you.

That means, the government gets stuck with the bill if the banks fail. That means us....

No one cares about the technicalities even if you are correct on them, because if the banks fail which is NOT unlikely, especially during the financial crisis when several failed, then the government is stuck with the bill. Loan, Loan Guarantee, the government pays if they screw up. Even under your assumptions, this is what a cosigner is.... If I co sign for you on a car loan and you don't make the payments, then that means I make them. Simple.

People object to, even under your scenario:
I.) The special treatment for banks even though they screw us.
II.) "Only" $1.2 Trillion in below market loans is "still" huge.
III.) Even if the loan amount was "only" $1,200,000,000,000, they made $13 Billion off a loan they took out for their own benefit.... They got interest for taking out a loan, we pay it for ours.
IV.) This is exactly like Credit Default Swaps, which were another form of this "loan protection," and it could never fail. It did. Hence the housing/sub-prime mortgage crisis. That was never gonna happen, right?
V.) We have to keep bailing these idiots out. You can't say, "O no, we need to throw tons of money at the banks in a bailout because if we don't the system will collapse and then say, "well it's unlikely that the system will collapse (that the banks will default). Pick one and stick to it, because it can't be both.

We are sick of being the last one out in their dine and dash and being stuck with the check. We don't care HOW we get stuck with the check, we care THAT we get stuck with the check.

Keep in mind, this argument gives you the benefit of every doubt. It assumes you are correct. Even then, what's your point?

O, a loan isn't the same as a loan guarantee but the government gets stuck with the bill if the banks screw up? Loan, Loan Guarantee, you know what I heard, "government stuck with the bill if the banks screw up." They do that all the time.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 12:01:22 pm by Truean »
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Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

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Nadaka

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2213 on: December 08, 2011, 12:03:05 pm »

« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 12:20:36 pm by Nadaka »
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mainiac

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2214 on: December 08, 2011, 12:44:56 pm »

I just dont even know where to start wading through the enormous level of fail in your post but let's just stick with the most egregious point.  "Unlikely" that every major bank in the US simultaneously goes down.  Why yes, that is unlikely very unlikely indeed.  And if that happens, we've got a few more important things to worry about, like fighting off the raiders in the apocalyptic wasteland that we are living in because that is what it would take.

So in the Red corner we've got... the federal reserve, most respected institution in the world, saying that loan guarantees are necessary to prevent a second great depression.  And in the Blue corner we've got Truean saying that we shouldn't do this because bankers might *gasp* make a profit off being scumbags.

I for one would much rather let a scumbag make a profit then destroy the world economy to make a point.  Call me crazy.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Truean

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2215 on: December 08, 2011, 12:51:44 pm »

I just dont even know where to start wading through the enormous level of fail in your post but let's just stick with the most egregious point.  "Unlikely" that every major bank in the US simultaneously goes down.  Why yes, that is unlikely very unlikely indeed.  And if that happens, we've got a few more important things to worry about, like fighting off the raiders in the apocalyptic wasteland that we are living in because that is what it would take.

So in the Red corner we've got... the federal reserve, most respected institution in the world, saying that loan guarantees are necessary to prevent a second great depression.  And in the Blue corner we've got Truean saying that we shouldn't do this because bankers might *gasp* make a profit off being scumbags.

I for one would much rather let a scumbag make a profit then destroy the world economy to make a point.  Call me crazy.

O no, it was necessary to bail them out, because they are so big that if they fail, they take the rest of us down with them. That's the problem and the reason this thread exists. Even when they massively screw up they still win, which means that they have no incentive to do things right. I'm not against the federal reserve. You're ignoring my points.  You're filling in blanks I'm not saying.

I expressly said it was necessary to bail them out:
Quote
Too big to fail...? That means you're so big that you can fail but if you do, then you take the whole economy with you.
That means, because I don't want the entire economy to fail, that we had to bail them out.

There is no fail in that post. None. Print that damn thing out and frame it.

Review, yes we had to bail them out this time. That doesn't mean we should sit around like morons and not regulate them to make sure it doesn't happen again.

I'm sure you know better then every goddamn financier in the world.
the federal reserve, most respected institution in the world

This is not a good tactic to take in this thread. What on earth made you think it was? I'm not against the Fed as an institution, but currently they've run out of tricks. The interest rates are near 0%. They don't have any ideas on how to stimulate jack, or are they doing such a great job? How is that working for everyone again?  You're in the thread for complaining that it isn't working and shocked that someone is complaining that it isn't working?

Also you're arguing with an attorney about matters of contract law. (loan issuance and repayment).

And now a little cross examination on a point of mine you're ignoring:

V.) We have to keep bailing these idiots out. You can't say, "O no, we need to throw tons of money at the banks in a bailout because if we don't the system will collapse and then say, "well it's unlikely that the system will collapse (that the banks will default). Pick one and stick to it, because it can't be both.

Well, which is it? Either
a.) The system was so financially troubled and in risk of collapse that we had to bail it out (I believe this)
b.) The system wasn't at great risk of financial collapse and we shouldn't worry about guaranteeing the bank's loans.

See how those two statement's contradict one another? See how they can't both be true? Either the system is unstable or stable, but not both at once. You can't say both and be consistent it is a contradiction.

If we're going to continue this conversation, then you need to pick "a" the system was unstable, or "b" the system was stable. Can't... have... both. That answers the question of "unlikely?" If the system was stable, then we shouldn't have bailed them out. If it was unstable, then we should've. Period. It was unstable, which means two things. First, we should've bailed them out. Second, we have every right to be worried they will default due to the instability. I chose "a." Pick.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 01:27:48 pm by Truean »
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Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

Please don't quote me.

mainiac

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2216 on: December 08, 2011, 01:30:10 pm »

Wow, you know so much about finance.

Newsflash: sometimes there are assets which are worthless at their current level of capitalization but valuable if they are recapitalized.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Bauglir

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2217 on: December 08, 2011, 01:39:29 pm »

I feel like some relaxed states need amplification in here. When the word "newsflash" is being thrown around without referring to the spontaneous combustion of thousands of newspapers, the argument has gotten childish.
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Truean

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2218 on: December 08, 2011, 01:39:50 pm »

Wow, you know so much about finance.

Newsflash: sometimes there are assets which are worthless at their current level of capitalization but valuable if they are recapitalized.

2nd time I've said it. Either amplify your relaxed state or the conversation between us is over.

I know you're failing at being sarcastic, but yes, I know a ton about finance.
Once again, attorney, I've done recapitalization of businesses to avoid chapter 11....

Also, I'm saying it again, "stable" or "unstable?" I explained it in my last post.

You wanna repeatedly make short, completely unsupported, posts with no citations, that ignore the substantial evidence I provide? How do you think that's gonna work out?

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Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

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mainiac

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Re: Occupying Wallstreet
« Reply #2219 on: December 08, 2011, 01:41:41 pm »

Quote
Well, which is it? Either
a.) The system was so financially troubled and in risk of collapse that we had to bail it out (I believe this)
b.) The system wasn't at great risk of financial collapse and we shouldn't worry about guaranteeing the bank's loans.

Yeah, I think this conversation is over...
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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