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[Derakon]

Dwarves don't consider their exit paths when building things, or digging channels or the like. They're perfectly willing to build a wall while standing on the "wrong" side of it, or dig channels similarly. I've had to tear-down and re-build walls several times before they happen to get it right, and unfortunately don't have any ready option for doing the same with channels (assuming there isn't stone available to build a floor over the channel).

Knowing which side is the right side can be tricky, but generally I'd say that any of the following should be a clue that you're doing it wrong:
* With the barrier in place, the dwarf can no longer reach the outdoors (assuming they could originally)
* With the barrier in place, the dwarf cannot reach the point from which they accepted the job
* With the barrier in place, the dwarf cannot reach their bedroom

On a somewhat related note, dwarves don't really consider what they may be blocking off due to their build order. It is technically possible to build a channel down a one-tile-wide corridor, but if you just designate it all at once, odds are that you won't get most of it built; a dwarf will dig out one of the early spots and then no longer have a path to the later ones. At first glance I'm not certain it's possible to set yourself up so that building either one of two barriers prevents you from building the other, so it should be safe to say that if, having chosen to build square X of some designated area, square Y of the same connected area is no longer accessible (regardless of which side you stand on), then your build order is off. I say connected mainly to limit the scope of designations you have to look at, and since this issue will most often come up with channels and walls, both of which tend to be connected.

[numerobis]

Normally this would be in the suggestions forum.  I think you have good suggestions on how to tell your dwarves to not be wrong.

The rules are ill-documented and ill-conceived, but consistent, so if you're thinking ahead, you can predict where the dwarves will be: always put in the South wall last, or else your dwarf will be on the wrong side; use doors so that your dwarf will be able to walk through it, then forbid the door and your dwarf will be forced to build from the better but nonstandard side; and other such tricks.

Oh, the life-changing one: instead of being on z and ordering a channel, go to z-1 and order up-ramps.  Then, remove the ramps.

[Yocas]

Another helpful feature would be if your endangered dwarfs were to run to the fort or to a nearby squad for safety instead of running 50 miles away from your home base.

[Torak]

The following is really useful until pathfinding and learning is changed in the future:

code:

When building A Wall/Digging a channel/Any sort of Manual task.
West > East > North > South > NW > SW > NE > SE  

[Cthulhu]

quote:Originally posted by Yocas:
<STRONG>Another helpful feature would be if your endangered dwarfs were to run to the fort or to a nearby squad for safety instead of running 50 miles away from your home base.</STRONG>

How would that help them?  If there's a swarm of goblins attacking, where do you think they'll go?  The fortress!!!
You need to get away from there, and hide in the woods.

Also, was that a Cask of Amontillado reference in the title?  Well played, sir.

[Yocas]

quote:Originally posted by Muffles:
<STRONG>

How would that help them?  If there's a swarm of goblins attacking, where do you think they'll go?  The fortress!!!
You need to get away from there, and hide in the woods.

Also, was that a Cask of Amontillado reference in the title?  Well played, sir.</STRONG>

Yeah but half the time when they spot them, they are outside of the fortress while your soldiers are maybe at your fortress gate. It's kind of annoying having that dwarf run like to another state  when he could of just ran inside the fort and would of been safe there. The problem for me is that when he starts running, he pulls the whole goblin fleet with him. It's kind of hard to point the army in the direction of your helpless worker is when HE KEEPS MOVING FURTHER AWAY FROM THE FORT. >:[

[ March 05, 2008: Message edited by: Yocas ]

[Derakon]

quote:Originally posted by Muffles:
<STRONG>Also, was that a Cask of Amontillado reference in the title?  Well played, sir.</STRONG>

It was indeed. Well spotted.

I suppose improving the pathing for dwarves counts as a suggestion rather than a bug, but the fact that dwarves can and will wall themselves in is definitely a bug (that results from poor pathing).

In the meantime, thanks for the directional priorities list, Torak. If I'm reading that correctly, dwarves will always start on the northwest corner and work their way to the southeast in horizontal rows?

[Griz]

quote:Originally posted by Derakon:
<STRONG>It was indeed. Well spotted.

I suppose improving the pathing for dwarves counts as a suggestion rather than a bug, but the fact that dwarves can and will wall themselves in is definitely a bug (that results from poor pathing).  </STRONG>

you can force them to build a wall from a certain side by placing and suspending a build wall order on the side you don't want them to stand on.

the reason why civilians caught outside in an ambush will run all over the map instead of going inside is because the "run away from enemies" task is higher priority than the "go inside because only soldiers are allowed outside" task. if they're in the middle of nowhere and the goblins are spotted near the gate, they'll run back to the fort and then see the goblins and run in a random direction, usually pulling all the goblins with them.

[ March 05, 2008: Message edited by: Griz ]

[Draco18s]

quote:Originally posted by Griz:
<STRONG>if they're in the middle of nowhere and the goblins are spotted near the gate, they'll run back to the fort and then see the goblins and run in a random direction, usually pulling all the goblins with them.</STRONG>

If they're inside and goblins show up at the gate they'll run OUTSIDE to get away (and run past the gobos).  I tried some "cleaver channeling" to put a spot of "outside" between the gate and the interrior of my fortress, yet they still entrance dance at the f*ing entrance.

[Shadowlord]

quote:Originally posted by Draco18s:
<STRONG>

I tried some "cleaver channeling" to put a spot of "outside" between the gate and the interrior of my fortress, yet they still entrance dance at the f*ing entrance.</STRONG>

They won't notice a single tile of outside. I have a long "outside" hallway in my main fort (in the only path leading outside) where they entrance dance, safely behind the defenses.

[ March 05, 2008: Message edited by: Shadowlord ]

[Crafty Barnardo]

Good ideas, but:

quote:Originally posted by Derakon:
<STRONG>* With the barrier in place, the dwarf can no longer reach the outdoors (assuming they could originally)</STRONG>

This will fail if the dwarf traps himself outdoors, like on the edge of a cliff or on top of a wall for instance.

quote:<STRONG>* With the barrier in place, the dwarf cannot reach the point from which they accepted the job</STRONG>

This will fail if the place where the dwarf is trapped and the area where the dwarf accepted the job happen to be contiguous.

quote:<STRONG>* With the barrier in place, the dwarf cannot reach their bedroom
</STRONG>

This would only work for dwarves who have bedrooms.

And of course all of these solutions would only help keep dwarves from trapping themselves.  It becomes exponentially more complicated when you try to keep dwarves from trapping other dwarves.  I think the only solution is to be very very careful when making channeling and rewalling assignments.

[Derakon]

These weren't meant to be perfect; merely rules of thumb. I'm aware that there are situations in which they can fail, though for the "outdoors" rule, you can easily swap "cannot reach the outdoors" with "cannot reach the indoors" if the dwarf is currently outside.

Avoiding trapping other dwarves is certainly a much more complicated problem, and I'm not concerned with it. There might be good reasons to put one of your dwarves into an oubliette, for all I know. But the dwarf shouldn't him/herself create said oubliette.

[Alfador]

Easy fix for all these problems: Allow designation of COMPLETE FORBIDDEN ZONEs. A CFZ would be like outside where "dwarves can't go outside," but all jobs involving objects or entities within that area would be cancelled as soon as the designation was complete, no more entrance dancing. A CFZ could be "all dwarves" or "non-soldiers" so you could forbid the area the goblins are in to normal dwarves while letting soldiers fight them there.

A dwarf finding him/herself in a CFZ would immediately path to the nearest non-forbidden tile, cancelling all current jobs. This would help clear out a place you're trying to block off, and also keep dwarves from continuing to chop down a tree until the goblins are nearly on top of them.

[Hellzon]

There is a devnote *somewhere* that says dwarves are eventually going to work from the first good tile they reach when building walls. That should solve most incidents of dwarves walling themselves in. Doesn't help with the other issues, of course.

[Earthquake Damage]

Thread title = win.