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[Urist Imiknorris]

If he lives through the night, it'll be highly questionable, unless because of doctors or something.

This is WIFOM. Now the scum has a reason to let him live, or could just roleblock him again (assuming he actually was roleblocked) and get the best of both worlds.

[Shark]

Found it!

This ties in to your other question, he's been my top scumpick for most of this day. I was originally suspicious of him because it seemed like he was trying to get attention off of him by attacking me, it's in the post where I vote him on page 10. This would actually turn out to be true, but I ended up freaking out because no one believed me at the start, which would later lead to me posting bullshit arguments. Later on, I unvoted because I decided that he was probably misguided town, and now, because of his recent posts, i'm thinking he's scum again. The fact that he attacked me just to avoid someone suspecting him was my original reason for suspecting him. In this case, he was scared of you?

I see you have a conveniently malleable opinion of Orangebottle's scumminess that roughly corresponds to how close you are to being lynched. I never expressed it properly, too busy panicing. Didn't realize how dumb it would look. Either way it's changed now with his roleclaim, i'm going to reread all the posts carefully and make a new opinion.

There's nothing Orangebottle did differently, except get attacked by me, and admit he made stuff up, so why the change in opinion before those two points? I don't really get this question. What exactly are you referring to? Because I don't remember changing my opinion drastically before orange said he made things up.

Further, your case is my case, but simplified. Do you have anything original to add? I think I did at the moment but I've forgotten because I never write anything down unless I post about it. I've been thinking about what's currently going on and forgot about these questions. Yes, I know this seems like a rather convenient answer so I don't have to say anything, but I can't think of anything to say.

If he lives through the night, it'll be highly questionable, unless because of doctors or something.

This is WIFOM. Now the scum has a reason to let him live, or could just roleblock him again (assuming he actually was roleblocked) and get the best of both worlds.

Oh right, I forgot that the roleblocker can roleblock AND kill. Disregard what I said.

[Shark]

Oh yeah, my answers to jim in the post I just made are underlined, inside his quote. I should have said that at the top of the post.

[Jim Groovester]

-Why did you choose to target Andrew? He had a rather large "Vig Me" sign on his back, so if there was a vig (or a SK who wanted to pose as one), then investigating Andrew would have been a waste of a night action.

This isn't a very fair question. It assumes that the existence of a Vigilante was either known or that it could be safely assumed on Day 1.

Oh yeah, my answers to jim in the post I just made are underlined, inside his quote. I should have said that at the top of the post.

Ugh, this makes it so much harder to read and respond to.

I don't really get this question. What exactly are you referring to? Because I don't remember changing my opinion drastically before orange said he made things up.

But you said:

Later on, I unvoted because I decided that he was probably misguided town, and now, because of his recent posts, i'm thinking he's scum again. The fact that he attacked me just to avoid someone suspecting him was my original reason for suspecting him. In this case, he was scared of you?

If you don't remember changing your opinion very much up to the point where I started pounding on Orangebottle, why did you unvote him and declare him misguided town, only after saying that you suspected him?

I think I did at the moment but I've forgotten because I never write anything down unless I post about it. I've been thinking about what's currently going on and forgot about these questions. Yes, I know this seems like a rather convenient answer so I don't have to say anything, but I can't think of anything to say.

Yes, this is a very convenient answer.

[Orangebottle]

Well, let's see...

If you had been correct about the roleblock/nightkill scenario, why would you assume that both the mafia and the SK would hit town?

Mmf. Honestly, I don't know how to answer this. There are so many things I could say, but they'd likely be more made-up shit and I don't want to do that again.

What about the actual vig (who would have to exist in your scenario)?

In what scenario? I stated facts, my role and what happened to me on night one when I tried to inspect Andrew. A vigilante doesn't have to exist in the scenarios that result from this; there could just be two scum left and an SK. There could also be a town roleblocker, a scum, and an SK. Hence why I was so confused.

It is entirely possible that two killers could try to kill the same person, considering that three out of five living players would have kills, and if one of the two people killed in that case was scum, town would still be able to win.

True, but you aren't considering all the possible situations.

-Why did you choose to target Andrew? He had a rather large "Vig Me" sign on his back, so if there was a vig (or a SK who wanted to pose as one), then investigating Andrew would have been a waste of a night action.

This is how I felt. His 'accusation that wasn't an accusation' of Musicalcakes made him really suspicious in my mind. I wanted to be sure.
A "Vig Me" sign basically means that he looks really, really scummy. Why wouldn't I be inspecting him?
Finally, how the hell was I supposed to know any of that on night one?

Orangebottle, are you sure that you were roleblocked, or did your investigation simply return nothing because andrew died? This might be a really dumb question but I don't know how roleblocking works.

Absolutely. The return PM clearly stated, in bold letters, You have been roleblocked. The flavor was something about extremely strong whiskey mysteriously appearing next to my bedroll.

My question is why orange is roleclaiming. If he's telling the truth and we lynch someone else/no lynch, he's probably going to be killed by scum anyway. If he lives through the night, it'll be highly questionable, unless because of doctors or something.

My actions prior to the claim were extremely scummy. It's hard to predict what the scum will do when we have no idea who they are(and no real suspects besides me), and even then it would be a flimsy meta argument. Then, if we're wrong, the actual scum would use this to generate more WIFOM.

[Urist Imiknorris]

What about the actual vig (who would have to exist in your scenario)?

In what scenario? I stated facts, my role and what happened to me on night one when I tried to inspect Andrew. A vigilante doesn't have to exist in the scenarios that result from this; there could just be two scum left and an SK. There could also be a town roleblocker, a scum, and an SK. Hence why I was so confused.

I thought the scum only get one factional kill per night? Also, you raise a good point about town roleblockers being a thing that could happen - but if the roleblocker is town, then why does you being roleblocked mean that there's a SK and not a vig, as you said?

It is entirely possible that two killers could try to kill the same person, considering that three out of five living players would have kills, and if one of the two people killed in that case was scum, town would still be able to win.

True, but you aren't considering all the possible situations.

Neither were you - I'm demonstrating that your reason for roleclaiming was flawed.

-Why did you choose to target Andrew? He had a rather large "Vig Me" sign on his back, so if there was a vig (or a SK who wanted to pose as one), then investigating Andrew would have been a waste of a night action.

This is how I felt. His 'accusation that wasn't an accusation' of Musicalcakes made him really suspicious in my mind. I wanted to be sure.
A "Vig Me" sign basically means that he looks really, really scummy. Why wouldn't I be inspecting him?
Finally, how the hell was I supposed to know any of that on night one?

Because vig was one of the possible roles, so there was a very real chance that Andrew wouldn't survive the night, and that investigating him would be pointless?

Orangebottle, I'm starting to doubt your claim is genuine. Your logic has some rather large holes.

[Orangebottle]

I thought the scum only get one factional kill per night?

A roleblocker scum and another mafia of some flavor.
 

Also, you raise a good point about town roleblockers being a thing that could happen - but if the roleblocker is town, then why does you being roleblocked mean that there's a SK and not a vig, as you said?

It makes it much less likely that there would be a vigilante because that town would be massively overpowered.

Neither were you - I'm demonstrating that your reason for roleclaiming was flawed.

Because you asked me to?

Because vig was one of the possible roles, so there was a very real chance that Andrew wouldn't survive the night, and that investigating him would be pointless?

Orangebottle, I'm starting to doubt your claim is genuine. Your logic has some rather large holes.

...
Okay.
Tell me.
How was I supposed to expect there was a vigilante when I'm the Cop at nine players?
Am I supposed to not inspect anyone I find scummy just because,"Oh, they may get killed in the night"?

[Urist_McArathos]

This is how I felt. His 'accusation that wasn't an accusation' of Musicalcakes made him really suspicious in my mind. I wanted to be sure.
A "Vig Me" sign basically means that he looks really, really scummy. Why wouldn't I be inspecting him?
Finally, how the hell was I supposed to know any of that on night one?
[/quote]
Because vig was one of the possible roles, so there was a very real chance that Andrew wouldn't survive the night, and that investigating him would be pointless?

Orangebottle, I'm starting to doubt your claim is genuine. Your logic has some rather large holes.
[/quote]

This answer from Orangebottle is completely fair; a scummy player who isn't lynched should DEFINITELY be a priority for either a cop inspect or a vig; with no way to coordinate through private chat like the scumteam, it actually makes a lot of sense to me that a cop and vig would target the same person (especially when that person was so far ahead of the pack in scummy behavior like Andrew),

I also don't like that you're acting like "Well, of COURSE it's a Vig" as though we all knew that D1.  A "Vig Me" sign implies there is a Vigilante to vig-kill.  We haven't even confirmed that there is a vig instead of an SK (though you're all fairly certain, it seems, of this scenario for some rather compelling reasons), yet you're attacking his claim because A) he should have known there was a vigilante, and B) expected the vigilante (which he didn't know existed but should have, apparently) to kill his target.

Sounds flimsy at best, and scummy at worst Imiknorris.

...
Okay.
Tell me.
How was I supposed to expect there was a vigilante when I'm the Cop at nine players?
Am I supposed to not inspect anyone I find scummy just because,"Oh, they may get killed in the night"?

I want these answered too, because it's a REALLY damn good pair of questions.

[Urist_McArathos]

New personal rule: Preview button EVERY TIME.

This is how I felt. His 'accusation that wasn't an accusation' of Musicalcakes made him really suspicious in my mind. I wanted to be sure.
A "Vig Me" sign basically means that he looks really, really scummy. Why wouldn't I be inspecting him?
Finally, how the hell was I supposed to know any of that on night one?

Because vig was one of the possible roles, so there was a very real chance that Andrew wouldn't survive the night, and that investigating him would be pointless?

Orangebottle, I'm starting to doubt your claim is genuine. Your logic has some rather large holes.

This answer from Orangebottle is completely fair; a scummy player who isn't lynched should DEFINITELY be a priority for either a cop inspect or a vig; with no way to coordinate through private chat like the scumteam, it actually makes a lot of sense to me that a cop and vig would target the same person (especially when that person was so far ahead of the pack in scummy behavior like Andrew),

I also don't like that you're acting like "Well, of COURSE it's a Vig" as though we all knew that D1.  A "Vig Me" sign implies there is a Vigilante to vig-kill.  We haven't even confirmed that there is a vig instead of an SK (though you're all fairly certain, it seems, of this scenario for some rather compelling reasons), yet you're attacking his claim because A) he should have known there was a vigilante, and B) expected the vigilante (which he didn't know existed but should have, apparently) to kill his target.

Sounds flimsy at best, and scummy at worst Imiknorris.

...
Okay.
Tell me.
How was I supposed to expect there was a vigilante when I'm the Cop at nine players?
Am I supposed to not inspect anyone I find scummy just because,"Oh, they may get killed in the night"?

I want these answered too, because it's a REALLY damn good pair of questions.
[/quote]

[Urist Imiknorris]

Orangebottle:

I thought the scum only get one factional kill per night?

A roleblocker scum and another mafia of some flavor.

But there were only two mafia in this game, Diakron and the alleged roleblocker. In order for your assumption (that a roleblocker can't block and kill at the same time) to be true (because that's the only way you could justify your claim without a third-party investigation result), there would have to be both a vig and SK. So why are you suggesting that there was more than one mafia left as opposed to a vig?

Neither were you - I'm demonstrating that your reason for roleclaiming was flawed.

Because you asked me to?

I gave you a chance because I will do what I have to to secure town victory. I believed you because you said that not doing so would have resulted in a town loss tonight. It was only later, when I went back, that I realized that my guess of your "promise" didn't match up with the information you gave, and by extension:

That is exactly what I'm saying.

Neither did your reason for claiming.

Because vig was one of the possible roles, so there was a very real chance that Andrew wouldn't survive the night, and that investigating him would be pointless?

Orangebottle, I'm starting to doubt your claim is genuine. Your logic has some rather large holes.

...
Okay.
Tell me.
How was I supposed to expect there was a vigilante when I'm the Cop at nine players?
Am I supposed to not inspect anyone I find scummy just because,"Oh, they may get killed in the night"?

Honestly? I can't answer that. I can only tell you what I'd do in that scenario - assume that there was a vig (because Murphy's law would screw me for assuming otherwise) and investigate someone I couldn't get a read on. I'll drop it.

McArathos:

This answer from Orangebottle is completely fair; a scummy player who isn't lynched should DEFINITELY be a priority for either a cop inspect or a vig; with no way to coordinate through private chat like the scumteam, it actually makes a lot of sense to me that a cop and vig would target the same person (especially when that person was so far ahead of the pack in scummy behavior like Andrew),

See above for why I'd disagree. My playstyle isn't optimistic enough for that.

I also don't like that you're acting like "Well, of COURSE it's a Vig" as though we all knew that D1.  A "Vig Me" sign implies there is a Vigilante to vig-kill.  We haven't even confirmed that there is a vig instead of an SK (though you're all fairly certain, it seems, of this scenario for some rather compelling reasons), yet you're attacking his claim because A) he should have known there was a vigilante, and B) expected the vigilante (which he didn't know existed but should have, apparently) to kill his target.

If our second gunman is an SK, wouldn't the best defense be to impersonate a vig? They could very easily do so, given that they could even mimic the town wincon until the Mafia were both dead. For all my usage of the vigilante label, I haven't forgotten that the vig could easily be an SK.

As for why I'd have assumed there was a vig/SK, I am too aware of Murphy's Law to assume there isn't one.

Sounds flimsy at best, and scummy at worst Imiknorris.

I'd beg to differ.

[Urist_McArathos]

Orangebottle:

I thought the scum only get one factional kill per night?

A roleblocker scum and another mafia of some flavor.

But there were only two mafia in this game, Diakron and the alleged roleblocker. In order for your assumption (that a roleblocker can't block and kill at the same time) to be true (because that's the only way you could justify your claim without a third-party investigation result), there would have to be both a vig and SK. So why are you suggesting that there was more than one mafia left as opposed to a vig?

That doesn't make sense; are you saying that the entire mafia team has to choose between letting the roleblocker use his power OR killing?

Because my understanding was that the scum team can kill every night, regardless, and the power roles can use their roles as long as they're alive.  If it's different here, that does indeed say something mighty important about Orangebottle's claim.

[Jim Groovester]

Let's just ignore what the mod has to say about this.

MOD: If the last Mafioso is a Roleblocker, are they allowed to perform both a block and their factional kill?

Yes.

Honestly? I can't answer that. I can only tell you what I'd do in that scenario - assume that there was a vig (because Murphy's law would screw me for assuming otherwise) and investigate someone I couldn't get a read on. I'll drop it.

Why assume a Vigilante? It's a possible role, not a guaranteed role.

If you're dropping it now, why did you bring it up in the first place, and what were you hoping to gain by doing so?

NativeForeigner, you haven't posted since Orangebottle's claim. Thoughts about it?

[Urist Imiknorris]

McArathos:
Orangebottle roleclaimed under the assumption that the roleblocker couldn't kill and block at the same time, which would require both a vig and SK's presence to explain the two night-kills. He then brought up the possibility that there were two mafia left, one to kill and one to block, as an alternative to there being both a vig and SK. This is entirely bullshit, as the game started with two mafia and one died D1. Two minus one does not equal two.


Jim:

Why assume a Vigilante? It's a possible role, not a guaranteed role.

Because I would find it safer to assume that there was a vig than to possiby waste an investigation.

If you're dropping it now, why did you bring it up in the first place, and what were you hoping to gain by doing so?

I didn't understand why OB would have investigated Andrew - he was basing the success of his investigation on whether or not there was a vig. I wanted to hear his reasoning, and I did.

[NativeForeigner]

NativeForeigner, you haven't posted since Orangebottle's claim. Thoughts about it?

I'm not sure I believe it, too many holes and it feels last-ditch to me.

OB: You said your claim would be confusing. How the hell is a cop-claim confusing?

[Orangebottle]

But there were only two mafia in this game, Diakron and the alleged roleblocker. In order for your assumption (that a roleblocker can't block and kill at the same time) to be true (because that's the only way you could justify your claim without a third-party investigation result), there would have to be both a vig and SK. So why are you suggesting that there was more than one mafia left as opposed to a vig?

I gave you a chance because I will do what I have to to secure town victory. I believed you because you said that not doing so would have resulted in a town loss tonight. It was only later, when I went back, that I realized that my guess of your "promise" didn't match up with the information you gave, and by extension:

Neither did your reason for claiming.

I honestly don't know how to answer this. If I say I forgot, I'm lying

Spoiler: In more than one way (click to show/hide)

You'd argue that I should know how many scum there are, that it's a really important number, and that no way I could've forgotten it.

. I could argue that I never read it, but that's total bullshit. Yet, I can see no other way to answer this question. All I can say at this point is: What the fuck, brain?

Because my understanding was that the scum team can kill every night, regardless, and the power roles can use their roles as long as they're alive.  If it's different here, that does indeed say something mighty important about Orangebottle's claim.

I always thought it was the opposite. That if you have a single scum left, he could only kill OR roleblock. I've people say things like,"Okay, you kill X so I can roleblock Y." in scumchats I've read before. I guess it just differs from mod to mod.

NativeForeigner, you haven't posted since Orangebottle's claim. Thoughts about it?

I'm not sure I believe it, too many holes and it feels last-ditch to me.

OB: You said your claim would be confusing. How the hell is a cop-claim confusing?

It was pretty damn confusing to me. A Roleblocker + Mafioso scumteam along with an Vigilante + Cop town? Seems pretty stacked in the town's favor. Then there's the whole double-kill situation, which confused me up until Simple gave us his answer because it means that it could be RB+MAF, SK, VIG+COP, which is absolutely brutal on the mafia. Or(and more likely in my mind for whatever reason before Imiknorris brought up the number of scum) there could be MAF+(something)+RB, COP+TOWN, SK,  or MAF+(something)+RB, COP+VIG+TOWN. The last two were the only ones I could conclude, and a   
4:5 Power Role:Vanilla ratio seemed very unlikely to me.