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[Shark]

That was overly convoluted why the hell did I do that x___x

Native i'll get to you in a sec sorry

[Shark]

Ok native I didn't try to convince everyone of noodle because I thought no one would believe me, and then call me scum :/, so I decided to say screw it, especially when orange replaced him.

I was being too passive on day one and now i'm trying to fix that.

Please tell me if I missed any other questions. Also, I think I messed up somewhere in that giant post. Should have done something else or broke it up into many posts, I prolly mistyped again or made a bad argument.

[NativeForeigner]

Imiknorris: He wasn't doing anything to defend himself, just complaining about how he messed up. It's absolutely NOT town's job to prove somebody's not scum if everybody thinks he's scum. It just doesn't work that way, nobody thinks it's a mislynch, so nobody's going to say anything about it. You can't just sit back and let town prove your towniness, you've gotta put some effort in defending yourself, something he wasn't doing.

It's interesting that you think that way. What makes you think it's town's job to prove the townhood of someone else? Doesn't that just seem like babysitting to you?

I should have been more specific - it's the accuser's job to prove that the town are scum. The burden of proof is on them, not the person they're accusing.

I did that. I was the first to vote him. It was an RVS, he slipped up, I called him out on it and explained why I wasn't going to unvote. I followed up until he ceased to be responsive. I don't see how that's placing any burden of proof on him.

Shark: Even if you don't think anyone is going to believe you, just take the time to build a decent case. Ask questions and whatnot. Don't just abandon the case to end the day, that's scummy.

[Urist_McArathos]

Quick Post: I see a lot of vig speculation.  I feel the vig should not claim until LYLO, as they would be a tempting scum Target.  Anyone who wants the vig to claim had better explain why they disagree, lest I find it as scummy as asking for a doctor claim.

[Shark]

Quick Post: I see a lot of vig speculation.  I feel the vig should not claim until LYLO, as they would be a tempting scum Target.  Anyone who wants the vig to claim had better explain why they disagree, lest I find it as scummy as asking for a doctor claim.

The reason i'm trying so hard to stay alive is because I think it's an SK, not a vig. If it's a vig, i'm okay if I die as long as town wins in the end, but if it's an SK, town's in a lot more trouble. Today's lynch could lose town the game if there's an SK around.

If there's a vig, they don't need to claim, however, i'm pretty sure their night kill still goes through even if scum targets them, and we only get one more vig night kill anyway, right? Correct me if i'm wrong. If there is a vig, we have today, the night, and tommorow to get the scum.

[Shark]

Imiknorris: He wasn't doing anything to defend himself, just complaining about how he messed up. It's absolutely NOT town's job to prove somebody's not scum if everybody thinks he's scum. It just doesn't work that way, nobody thinks it's a mislynch, so nobody's going to say anything about it. You can't just sit back and let town prove your towniness, you've gotta put some effort in defending yourself, something he wasn't doing.

It's interesting that you think that way. What makes you think it's town's job to prove the townhood of someone else? Doesn't that just seem like babysitting to you?

I should have been more specific - it's the accuser's job to prove that the town are scum. The burden of proof is on them, not the person they're accusing.

I did that. I was the first to vote him. It was an RVS, he slipped up, I called him out on it and explained why I wasn't going to unvote. I followed up until he ceased to be responsive. I don't see how that's placing any burden of proof on him.

Shark: Even if you don't think anyone is going to believe you, just take the time to build a decent case. Ask questions and whatnot. Don't just abandon the case to end the day, that's scummy.

Fine, I get the idea, everyone and their mother is telling me, it never seemed scummy to me so I didn't do it. My inexperience started 90% of today's conversation :|
I should have joined beginner mafia, but I already know how to play. urf.

[Urist Imiknorris]

Guess what? The next BM should be starting pretty soon.

[Orangebottle]

Random sidenote I just thought of: If the mysterious killer is a serial killer pretending to be a vigilante, if you guys mislynch on me today, there is literally no way for town to win unless the SK kills the scum and you guys lynch the SK the next day.

Let's hope it's a vigil.

Alright. Let's give you the benefit of the doubt here.
Who's this mysterious killer, and why?
And why do you think they haven't claimed vigilante yet?

Check out the first post. Vigil and SK are both possible roles.
There were 2 night kills, so we have once of them in this game.
Vigilante is a pretty safe thing to claim because you can kill anyone who would counter claim. It's either that the vigil doesn't want to be killed by the mafia, or that the person is a SK. If they're an SK, then it's MYLO today, unless scum kills SK.

Yes, I know they're possible roles. Two NKs confirms the existence of one.
Anyone you kill as a vig flips role/alignment. That makes it very unsafe, actually. What makes it safe is the very low chance of there being an SK, Vig, AND scumteam. Also, we have 6 people. It's a 2/5 chance that one of them hits the other if neither are lynched today. I'd say I like those odds.

Now it's time to look at that huuuuuge list of possibilities that you gave me.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Let's assume in these situations I get lynched as a result of your argument.
I'm also assuming that running an aggresive campaign against someone, which you are doing to me, is scummy if they turn out to be town.
Incorrect. If they look scummy, it's fine.


1.I'm scum, you're town. You win.
You forgot to include the vigilante/serialkiller possibilities. If it's an SK, then it's still LYLO the next day. And i'd end up dead for successfully hitting scum.
2.I'm town, you're scum, 3rd guy is vigil. Running a very aggresive campaign against someone who ends up being town would raise a lot of suspicion against you. If the vigil doesn't kill you, the last day will be 2 town and you, unless the vigil doesn't kill for whatever reason, if they're allowed to. You can win, but it doesn't seem likely to me unless everyone wants you alive for something, because if I get lynched it'll be your fault. The scum in this situation would prolly not be lynched or vig killed because there's not much suspicion toward Jim/Native/Urist/Urist
This is how I won my first game as scum, actually. Two players got in a feud at 4 players, I ran a massive campaign that overwhelmed one of them, then got a lurker lynched at LYLO.

However, this is not the case. Because this time, my case isn't just random made-up stuff.
3.I'm town, you're scum, 3rd guy is SK. SK are forced to kill in many setups, i'm assuming that. If he misses you, the final day will be him, you, and one town, meaning you win, unless you kill him at night. You have a better chance of winning than if this is a vigilante.
No, because SK and Scum can't win if both are present at the end of the game. We tie unless one of us kills the other or gets the other lynched.
4.I'm town, you're town, 3rd is vigil. This is pointless and your fault for lynching me. If the vigil misses the scum, it'll be you, another town, and a scum. Suspicion will probably be high on you for lynching me, a town. You probably lose.
Hey, people always make mistakes. I'm only human.
5.I'm town, you're town, 3rd is SK. If the SK kills the scum, town has a chance to lynch him last day. If SK kills a town, mafia wins. You probably lose.
Unless mafia kills SK. If both hit town, nobody wins.
6.I'm town, you're vigil. This situation will not happen because you're wondering why vigil hasn't been claimed. If you ARE the vigil, good luck finding the scum, you'd have to shoot him during the night, or town would be suspicious of you for getting a town killed. Scum in this situation is prolly someone like jim or one of the urists and is unlikely to get lynched because there's not much suspicion to them.
Yeah, i'm not the vigilante.
7.I'm town or scum, you're SK You're trying to kill the scum so you have a chance at winning. To have a chance to win you have to get him lynched today or kill him at night tommorow. If you don't get him killed, last day will be you, a scum, and a town if the scum doesn't kill you at night. Scum outnumbers town, they win.
I'm not the SK either. Also, no. Because if there's an SK at game end, neither the SK nor the Mafia can win.
8.I'm vigil, you're town. I'd just claim vigil so town would know there's not an SK. If i'm really vig, next day is MYLO.
And then we'd lynch you for claiming vigilante so early and looking like desperate, flailing scum.
9.I'm SK. I'd be unable to claim vigil, scum would kill me. If you're scum, you win unless you get lynched the next day. If you're town, you have to deal with a MYLO.
Me? Lynched? Naaaw. But i'm not scum.

So because these situations look pretty bad for you, besides 1, I say we put our argument on hold and look at other people, you need to lynch the correct person today to win.

Now, the reason I did all this?

Normally i'd be willing to sacrifice myself if it means we get the scum but until we get a vig claim, there's an SK. It's MYLO unless scum finds the SK. I can't afford to let myself die.

In the situations where you're scum or SK, you have a really good reason to lead the lynch today. SK needs to get the scum to have a chance. Scum needs to attract attention on other people.

In the situations where you're town, why would you be so desperate to get the correct lynch today? You've been hounding on my ass the whole day no matter what I say, ignoring every other person. At least examine them.

...
Why wouldn't I be so desperate to get the correct lynch today? If we lynch wrong, we leave our victory up to chance.
I'm not going to put my argument on hold just because you might possibly be town. I'll look at others, but I'm pushing for your lynch because I believe that you aren't town. Ergo, you're scum. And no, SK needs to kill the scum so they can actually win.

You've failed to express any actual opinion with this massive post. Which situation do you think is the most likely? Why?

Also, you only answered the last question. Who do you think is the SK, and why do you think they are the SK?
Imiknorris:You need to find something stronger. On anyone, really.
Jim:
To me, your day 1 play seems pretty passive. Probably because you've been speaking in your special IC voice all day. Stop softballing us.

[Shark]

Dumb post was too wrong, didn't say what I wanted to clearly. At the very end there i'm saying that if you're town, you should at least have an opinion on everyone. Right now everyone is getting off scot free because of what I believe to probably be a town trying to lynch a town while the mafia giggles in the corner. We need a good look at everyone. If you weren't asking other people questions now, i'd call you scum, but this is a dumb town attacking town thing. For the moment, let's just drop it. Keep your vote on me if you want, though.

Native, who do you think is most scummy right now?

Imiknorris, Why are you only going after Native and Arathos?

I think Jim has enough questions for when he gets back, I don't have anything new to say off the top of my head

[Orangebottle]

You've failed to express any actual opinion with this massive post. Which situation do you think is the most likely? Why?

Also, you only answered the last question. Who do you think is the SK, and why do you think they are the SK?

Shark: one of the things you'll find really pisses me off is being ignored.

Dumb post was too wrong, didn't say what I wanted to clearly. At the very end there i'm saying that if you're town, you should at least have an opinion on everyone. Right now everyone is getting off scot free because of what I believe to probably be a town trying to lynch a town while the mafia giggles in the corner. We need a good look at everyone. If you weren't asking other people questions now, i'd call you scum, but this is a dumb town attacking town thing. For the moment, let's just drop it. Keep your vote on me if you want, though.

My vote's staying there because you're currently the most scummy player on the map. You want my opinions on everyone?
Shark:Too scummy.
Arathos:Too absent.
Imiknorris:His posts have little content to them. He's not hunting very well...
Native:I can't find any legitimate reason to think he's scum.
Jim:It feels like he's trying too hard to look town. Not that he's too townie. Where someone else has told Andrew or Shark that they should find a BM, and told them why they were wrong, Jim's gone into a massive in-depth explanation that ended up being his entire post.
Me:The townest town to ever town a town in the town. But that's what everybody thinks about themselves.

[NativeForeigner]

Shark: Before I can answer that, I need you to answer this:

In this post, you switch your vote from Andrew, who wasn't posting to Diakron who wasn't posting... for not posting... you then proceed to do nothing to back up  your vote, you don't even ask questions. As you put it yourself, you were just jumping on the Diakron train. Why did you change your vote from someone who wasn't voting to someone else who wasn't voting? It's not like you were trying to provoke activity.

[Shark]

Shark: Before I can answer that, I need you to answer this:

In this post, you switch your vote from Andrew, who wasn't posting to Diakron who wasn't posting... for not posting... you then proceed to do nothing to back up  your vote, you don't even ask questions. As you put it yourself, you were just jumping on the Diakron train. Why did you change your vote from someone who wasn't voting to someone else who wasn't voting? It's not like you were trying to provoke activity.

The fact that diak stopped posting after slipping badly made him obvscum. Like I said before, just wanted to day to end quicker if possible so we could get to this day. I didn't realize what that change would mean to other people.

My original thoughts about halfway through day one were that diak and noodle might be scumteam, if that clears anything up. I was just more suspicious of noodle for a long time, which I explained.

[Urist Imiknorris]

Shark:

Imiknorris, Why are you only going after Native and Arathos?

Jim's vanished, your logic is terrible enough that I can't tell if you're scum or just bad, I can't find anything suspicious from OB (which means I need to go back and read again), and I'm not going to attack myself.

Check out the first post. Vigil and SK are both possible roles.
There were 2 night kills, so we have once of them in this game.
Vigilante is a pretty safe thing to claim because you can kill anyone who would counter claim. It's either that the vigil doesn't want to be killed by the mafia, or that the person is a SK. If they're an SK, then it's MYLO today, unless scum kills SK.

Congratulations on missing the obvious. Why would a vig not be afraid of being a mafia target?

Normally i'd be willing to sacrifice myself if it means we get the scum but until we get a vig claim, there's an SK. It's MYLO unless scum finds the SK. I can't afford to let myself die.

In the situations where you're town, why would you be so desperate to get the correct lynch today? You've been hounding on my ass the whole day no matter what I say, ignoring every other person. At least examine them.

Why would you ask him that? You even said yourself that (according to you) the town can't afford to mislynch. So what is it about Orangebottle's "desperation" that's bad coming from him but good coming from you?

Dumb post was too wrong, didn't say what I wanted to clearly. At the very end there i'm saying that if you're town, you should at least have an opinion on everyone. Right now everyone is getting off scot free because of what I believe to probably be a town trying to lynch a town while the mafia giggles in the corner. We need a good look at everyone. If you weren't asking other people questions now, i'd call you scum, but this is a dumb town attacking town thing. For the moment, let's just drop it. Keep your vote on me if you want, though.

What are your opinions on everyone, as you say every town should at least have? And why are you suggesting that the two of you drop it? Is that the only defense you have left? Also, what makes you sure he's town, but not sure enough to unvote him?

My original thoughts about halfway through day one were that diak and noodle might be scumteam, if that clears anything up.

No, it really doesn't. If you thought Diakron and Noodlerex were the scumteam, why didn't you say so during D1? I think you're making this up to justify your vote on Diakron.

[Jim Groovester]

Jim: Where'd you run off to?

Jim, anything to add? What's your opinion on Orangebottle's response to your questions? Why aren't you posting?

Jim's vanished,

Oh, come the fuck on. It's only been a little more than day.

I had a busy evening yesterday. Meanwhile, everybody threw up three pages of posts and it's taken a lot of time to pore over.

My logic is thus: rolefishing is scummy. Anything bordering rolefishing is therefore scummy.

And yes, I do need to look active, what after the person I replaced lurking most of day 1. To stave off the people who have the mentality of,"Oh, his predecessor was lurking so hard this replacement MUST be scum!".

If it's scummy then it's not to the same degree as actual rolefishing. Yet you came out to start Day 2 swinging like it was the scummiest thing in the world. Why?

Justifiable self-preservation noted.

Jim:
To me, your day 1 play seems pretty passive. Probably because you've been speaking in your special IC voice all day. Stop softballing us.

I'm going to chomp down on people for things that make them scum, not things that make them noobs. If I did that the game would be over and it would be a town loss. If it looks like I'm holding back, it's because I have to because a ton of people decided they were too cool to play a Beginner's Mafia and I have to take more time to make the judgment of whether they're town or scum.

IN ESSENCE:

1.You were incredibly passive on day 1.
2.You had no reason for voting Diakron. He claimed scum after you voted for him.
3.You are a liar.

Posts like these, which you have a lot of, are why I have a hard time believing you actually think Shark is scum. You're being a lot harder on him than you really need to be or is warranted by the evidence you have on him.

Clearly he's inexperienced and has no idea how to capably defend himself. And your response to it? Practically predatory.

So, you were voting to end the day, not to lynch scum. Nice. See, that's not a town attribute at all. Town votes to lynch scum. Scum votes to lynch town and get to the night phase faster so they can kill someone. If you had truly thought Noodlerex was the scummiest, you should've left your vote there, and continued to hunt other people without it.

The time honored tactic of regurgitating mafia advice like it's gospel and going after players who don't follow it, whether they know to or not, like an inquisitor.

I won't argue it's not scummy for Shark to do that but I will argue it speaks more to his inexperience than his alignment.

Jim:It feels like he's trying too hard to look town. Not that he's too townie. Where someone else has told Andrew or Shark that they should find a BM, and told them why they were wrong, Jim's gone into a massive in-depth explanation that ended up being his entire post.

And you developed this opinion when exactly? In the flurry of activity I had between my last post and now?

Explain to me exactly how I've been trying too hard to look town. How about you quote me somebody's post who made an adequate explanation and then link me mine that is 'massive and in-depth.'

Okay. Are you going to develop the reasons behind your vote, or are you just going to sit there?
It's rare that people are convinced by a one-line-wonder.
PPE:Oh, look. It's...something. Huh. I can't really tell what. Looks like an argument with little content and a weak base.

For accusing me of trying too hard to look town, you sure look an awful lot like you're trying to out-town everybody else, what with how you're giving everybody shit for anything you can grasp at in a needlessly hostile way.

Shark,

You guys are setting up this situation in your heads where whatever I answer is interpreted as scummy, this lose-lose situation. It doesn't matter what I say or do, you just don't want to hear it.

No they aren't. Your responses to their questions are the only driving factor in their attacks.

Also, orangebottle is completely ignoring the parts where I point how he's being a hypocrite in his campaign against me, and native ignores that and jumps on the train.

Hypocrisy isn't a scumtell.

Vigilante is a pretty safe thing to claim because you can kill anyone who would counter claim. It's either that the vigil doesn't want to be killed by the mafia, or that the person is a SK. If they're an SK, then it's MYLO today, unless scum kills SK.

If anyone's got a vig claim, it would help.

This is extremely blatant rolefishing which no matter how much I look at your actions with noob-tinted goggles I can't see as anything besides scummy. Why are you doing it? Further, you're asking the Vigilante to claim so that you can be saved from a lynch.

Um, no, sorry, that's a terrible idea and still extremely scummy.

The reason i'm trying so hard to stay alive is because I think it's an SK, not a vig.

Exactly why do you think it's a SK and not a Vigilante?

Meanwhile, you've been spending all your time defending yourself against Orangebottle. Who are your scumpicks and what are your reasons?

[Orangebottle]

Oh, Jim's back. Excellent.

If it's scummy then it's not to the same degree as actual rolefishing. Yet you came out to start Day 2 swinging like it was the scummiest thing in the world. Why?

I found something scummy about him and pressed. Hard.

IN ESSENCE:

1.You were incredibly passive on day 1.
2.You had no reason for voting Diakron. He claimed scum after you voted for him.
3.You are a liar.

Posts like these, which you have a lot of, are why I have a hard time believing you actually think Shark is scum. You're being a lot harder on him than you really need to be or is warranted by the evidence you have on him.

Clearly he's inexperienced and has no idea how to capably defend himself. And your response to it? Practically predatory.

It's scumhunting for a reason.
Joking aside, maybe I have been a little hard on him.
In my defense, he said he's played before.

Jim:It feels like he's trying too hard to look town. Not that he's too townie. Where someone else has told Andrew or Shark that they should find a BM, and told them why they were wrong, Jim's gone into a massive in-depth explanation that ended up being his entire post.

And you developed this opinion when exactly? In the flurry of activity I had between my last post and now?

Explain to me exactly how I've been trying too hard to look town. How about you quote me somebody's post who made an adequate explanation and then link me mine that is 'massive and in-depth.'

Yes. Exactly then. By giving so much advice to the newguys, they're going to trust you and think you're more likely to be town. It's something i tried as scum in BMXVI and it worked wonderfully.
Here is Native's post, and here is yours. I may have been exaggerating a little as far as 'massive' goes, but most of your post was advice to the newguys.

For accusing me of trying too hard to look town, you sure look an awful lot like you're trying to out-town everybody else, what with how you're giving everybody shit for anything you can grasp at in a needlessly hostile way.

I'm just pointing out anything that looks odd or scummy to me. Sometimes both. How is it any different from what you normally do?