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Author Topic: Longstanding (swept under the rugs) Issues - What and why?  (Read 5184 times)

IronValley

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Longstanding (swept under the rugs) Issues - What and why?
« on: September 18, 2011, 04:22:42 pm »

After writing a rather depressing post about the current state of some of the larger issues in Dwarf Fortress, I've come to the conclusion that there are quite a few that have not been discussed much lately, therefore I figured a thread where we can list, and discuss these issues would be a good idea.

You could call this a call for attention for these bugs/features/issues, or a list of complaints etc... But this is not supposed to be a "screw the creator(s)" thread. If anything, this thread would ideally serve as a "oh damned.... I sort of hoped they'd forgotten about those" reminder for Toady and Threetoe. Sometimes It's easier to forget and move on to the fun stuff, and leave the boring bugs behind.


First on the list is the big nasty beast itself: Frames Per Second (or death from too much fun)

As people grow accustomed to the build-in death traps and common gameplay mechanics that cause forts to die, the main reason for giving up on a grown fortress is lagg. As thing go slower and slower, it no longer becomes fun, or interesting to watch the miserable (or joyful) existence of ones hated (loved) dwarves.

Having done next to no research on the topic myself, the general consensus is that path-finding and temperature calculations are the main culprits behind the downfall of most Dwarven Outposts. Personally, I tend to just turn off temperature once things get too slow, but those that don't have the luxury of top-end might see this as more of an issue than I do.
As the threads on efficient magma-pumpstacks have showed, moving magma is something that when done wrong will have a drastic effect on your game performance. Perhaps something as simple as lowering the frequency of temperature calculations (especially caused by fluid calculations) could perhaps be a make-shift solution.

The other resource hog is pathfinding. But as I understand it, the pathfinding algorithm used by dwarf fortress is something we'll just have to live with. Improvements that involve pre-memorized paths between commonly used areas have been suggested, but these seem to run into problems when dealing with sudden path changes (Bridges and locked doors). Perhaps the system could be implemented with fixed nodes and continuous pathchecks between the nodes, instead of the memorized paths? That's up to Toady, but despite being a b*tch to adress, and the amount of forum attention it has gathered, I felt it should be mentioned.



Next in line is the current state of Anarchy that has been reported in recent Dwarven Outposts.

No Tax is being collected, no criminals are being hammered! And Dwarves seems to have forgotten how to tame fanciful beasts!
Yes, all you need is a few changes in the RAWs. But there is an underlying issue with positions that are appointed by a position that is appointed by a far away ruler.



And as if anarchy wasn't enough, there's also the extreme case of Naturalism that exists in Dwarven Outposts across the many lands and worlds.

Sure, a few naked children here and there is just fine... But the current madness that is clothing should perhaps be considered. Something has to be done with the current state of nakedness that is running rampant trough the Dwarven Civlization!


Last on my list (feel free to add your own!) is the lack of physics in the construction department of world generation!



Note: This is meant as a friendly (or nagging perhaps) reminder, nothing more. And I wish Toady good luck with the current and future development cycles. Perhaps it is time to look under the old carpets before purchasing a new table?

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Dienes

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Re: Longstanding (swept under the rugs) Issues - What and why?
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2011, 05:24:55 pm »

I'd love to see some of the more common bugs taken care of. Hopefully some are already done and Toady just hasn't mentioned them. The whole dwarves going naked thing is one I would especially appreciate.

FPS is a pretty complicated thing to tackle since so much goes into it. Optimizing can be very tricky even for excellent programers since optimized code is almost always more complicated so it is more likely for bugs to creep in. And if you ever have to go back and modify the optimized code its harder to tweak since its more complicated. There are a few things that shouldn't be too hard though.

Broken clothing has a pretty serious impact on FPS. The bug tracker has an interesting analysis of this and while it looks like a few things are going on a bug thing would be the proposed inline function implementation should give a good speedup without redesigning bigger systems. Possibly related is contaminants on dwarves and clothing potentially killing fps because the items would continually check if they were dirty. I can't find the bug that mentioned that though.

Hidden Fun Stuff can cripple a fort's FPS. The clowns all have buildingdestroyer:2 and a lot show up. If the player manages to wall off the HFS the clowns will not be able to reach the fortress and will wait around forever. Besides the expected FPS drop from many more creatures there seems to be a bug that every one of them will try and path to the closest building every tick. If you remove the buildingdestroyer:2 tag by following the directions in the bugtracker you will see a significant boost to FPS. One simple fix would be to add a delay between attempts to path to a target if the previous pathing failed. A more complex fix may also improve other pathfinding slowdowns but only Toady would know for sure.

Contaminants can slow down a fort quite a bit since they may be spread over a huge area and may not be cleaned up. This bug report covers it. Either designated cleaning or natural decay of contaminants would help fix this. Contaminants on clothes could cause this to keep coming up though.
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Jelle

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Re: Longstanding (swept under the rugs) Issues - What and why?
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2011, 05:39:04 pm »

Diplomatic relations are still pretty void, if not nonexistant in the case of the elves.
I'm going to asume atleast that the current diplomacy with other civs are currently placeholders, either that or the humans really do think I've carved out a nice place.  :P
But I can imagine some more stuff needs to be implemented before anything significant can be done on diplomacy.

One bug in particular I really dislike is the lye+water bucket bug. What can I say I really want to give those grand master soap makers a chance, but it's such a hassle with this bug I rarely bother with soap at all.

Another thing that really bothers is many tame animals not requiring any sort of food to survive. With the implementation of grazing, livestock now makes sense as you need to have a propper setup to feed them, but all the non grazers are just so easy to maintain as they don't need any food, it doesn't really make any sense.
Because of that some sources of food are just waaaay to easy and kind of ruin the challenge.
That said I do think farm plot yields are way to high as well, but at least some sort of labor is required to get food from farming.
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Koji

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Re: Longstanding (swept under the rugs) Issues - What and why?
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2011, 10:35:40 pm »

My computer is two years old and I have never had an FPS issue except when temperature is on and I decide to do some massive magma flooding.
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yarr

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Re: Longstanding (swept under the rugs) Issues - What and why?
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2011, 02:19:41 am »

Having not played for quite some time now (waiting for the new version) I can't really point my finger towards what is exactly the problem BUT something is "wrong" with Military. I hope someone else can elaborate. You know, it was "just better" in 40d.

FPS, sure...we all know that, and we all want it fixed (multithreaded *cough*):D.

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Tharwen

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Re: Longstanding (swept under the rugs) Issues - What and why?
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2011, 02:58:40 pm »

I think there are lots of little bugs that need to be fixed. For example, we shouldn't be able to deconstruct a Trade Depot and get all the merchants' items for free.

Also, the menus need some sorting out. They should all use either +-*/ or PGUP/PGDN/UP/DOWN. Not randomly switch between them. Also, it would be nice if windows expanded to fill the container they're put in. It's annoying to have to scroll down a tiny health screen when my monitor is easily large enough to accommodate the entire list.

My computer is two years old and I have never had an FPS issue except when temperature is on and I decide to do some massive magma flooding.

Lucky you. I hope you weren't suggesting that it shouldn't be improved.
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Makbeth

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Re: Longstanding (swept under the rugs) Issues - What and why?
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2011, 08:46:32 pm »

Let's see... the bugs that drag the experience down the most and seem to have just been left alone indefinitely...

This is a big one: Warm and wet stone cancellations should not occur for digging actions that can't create leaks.  There's no reason to cancel the digging of horizontal tunnels just below lakes and rivers or just above magma.  At the very least, designations shouldn't be affected by known sources of water and magma, only undiscovered ones.  If it's too much work to replace the temperature-based system with a context-based system, then please give us a command in the Orders menu to toggle whether dwarves cancel for wet or warm stone.  For the love of Armok, please give us that option.  Designating a huge room over and over again, tile-by-friggin-tile, is just not something anyone should have to deal with.

Marksdwarves don't train properly and, I've recently discovered, don't even aim properly; they fire at the enemy from a greater distance than the bolts are capable of traveling, so there is zero chance of them hitting anything, exhaust their ammo, and then run in to die quickly in melee combat.


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Untelligent

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Re: Longstanding (swept under the rugs) Issues - What and why?
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2011, 09:49:41 pm »

Having not played for quite some time now (waiting for the new version) I can't really point my finger towards what is exactly the problem BUT something is "wrong" with Military. I hope someone else can elaborate. You know, it was "just better" in 40d.

FPS, sure...we all know that, and we all want it fixed (multithreaded *cough*) :D .


I like the military in the current version a fair bit better. Also DF isn't going to be multithreaded, or at least not in your lifetime.
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kasan

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Re: Longstanding (swept under the rugs) Issues - What and why?
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2011, 12:39:36 am »

Making DF multithreaded would be like making it multiplayer.  It would require the entire game to be scrapped and rewritten from scratch. (It'd be faster to just rewrite the game than to try and adapt the existing code for new changes.)
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Nunzillor

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Re: Longstanding (swept under the rugs) Issues - What and why?
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2011, 12:46:07 am »

Just what is the pathfinding algorithm, anyway?  Just wondering.
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Dienes

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Re: Longstanding (swept under the rugs) Issues - What and why?
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2011, 09:56:37 am »

Making DF multithreaded would be like making it multiplayer.  It would require the entire game to be scrapped and rewritten from scratch. (It'd be faster to just rewrite the game than to try and adapt the existing code for new changes.)

While the entire game is unlikely to ever be parallelized some parts should be fairly straightforward. Pathfinding and AI are both encapsulated problems that that would only need access to each others results for conflict resolution. Temperature calculations are probably also easily parallelized as well.
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Footkerchief

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Re: Longstanding (swept under the rugs) Issues - What and why?
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2011, 11:23:39 am »

Just what is the pathfinding algorithm, anyway?  Just wondering.

A*.
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peskyninja

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Re: Longstanding (swept under the rugs) Issues - What and why?
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2011, 05:11:10 pm »

A* is a bad one?
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Re: Longstanding (swept under the rugs) Issues - What and why?
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2011, 08:29:46 pm »

A* is a bad one?

It depends on the estimates the programmer is using for distances, I wouldn't say that the DF pathfinding is bad, it can just have a lot of little tricks done to it to decrease the amount of cpu the pathfinder uses, such as only recalculating when you need too and so on. Most modern games use the A* with a whole buch of tricks to get them to run smoothly and quickly.
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Ghills

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Re: Longstanding (swept under the rugs) Issues - What and why?
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2011, 09:06:54 pm »

The way items hang around for ever is pretty irritating.   All the crafts are susceptible to breakage, there should be some items that get lost (this could be tied into an entity's memory score, probably), etc.  The only thing that wears out in any way right now is clothing, and that's hilariously broken.  I want something to with my master craftsdwarfship besides dumping it on the caravans.
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