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[nenjin]

As someone who has been the victim of something pretty similar to this, my perspective is pretty different. When you're not in danger, and someone decides to make you their business out of their sense of concern, when you feel it's totally unwarranted and even intrusive....you tend not to want other people making your business their's, especially when their intrusion has consequences for you, and absolutely zero for them.

Saying that doing anything is just so somebody can feel like they've "taken action" is about as accurate as saying your response is because you don't care whether people live or die.

Fair enough.

[Bauglir]

I get that. Yes, if he was going to be fine, it sucks that somebody put him in a position that ended up hurting him unnecessarily. It sucks doubly so that he didn't have control over the decision*. But it would've sucked worse if he'd died, and I think the degree to which that would've sucked outweighed the degree to which it was a less likely outcome. That's a subjective judgment, of course; it depends on the value you ascribe to life and that you ascribe to self-determination, and how they change relative to one another based on the stakes of the situation.

Now, if the roommate were actually in a condition to make a judgment call? That'd be a different story, I think. But without some way of giving input, I don't think it's fair to assume that somebody's willing to take whatever risks go along with the situation. From the sound of it, he wasn't in a position to make a decision of any kind, much less a well-thought out one. Maybe I'm wrong about that; maybe he was lucid enough to tell his roommate what to do, and if that's the case, I'll have to reconsider. It wasn't the impression I got at the time, though.

 

Spoiler: * (click to show/hide)

Well, I actually would like to argue that it's stupid to break the rules of the place you're living at, because getting kicked out and stuff tends to be a consequence, but from a practical standpoint I'm willing to accept that people are gonna be dumb enough to sign a contract and then break it without planning for the possibility of getting caught. It's also hard to find a school that'll let you stay if you have repeated incidences of underage drinking, but on the other hand, I don't think it's common for the shit to start flying with long-term consequences on a first offense so we might want to call that a wash. At any rate, that all goes back to the decision that led to the roommate having to make this decision, and probably isn't relevant to what you're saying.

[Fenrir]

Nenjin, you are criticizing altruism and empathy and a lack of omniscience whilst defending the hallowed practices of drunkenness and rule-breaking. Amazing.

[Vector]

As someone who has been the victim of something pretty similar to this, my perspective is pretty different. When you're not in danger, and someone decides to make you their business out of their sense of concern, when you feel it's totally unwarranted and even intrusive....you tend not to want other people making your business their's, especially when their intrusion has consequences for you, and absolutely zero for them.

I've had teachers and other adults looking out for me for psychological issues or abuse since I was in early elementary school, hauled into counselors time after time ("You looked unhappy getting off the school bus.  We decided that we wanted to talk to you, because you didn't look happy enough"); it wasn't necessary until recently, when I did indeed make the decision of "leave school or die" without being certain that I would be reaccepted.

Sure, I wasn't happy about all that.  I found it embarrassing and humiliating.  All the same, I wouldn't say this is an issue of circumstance and life experience, one of us a victim and the other not.  Maybe it's actually that we're very different people.

[nenjin]

I've had teachers and other adults looking out for me for psychological issues or abuse since I was in early elementary school, hauled into counselors time after time ("You looked unhappy getting off the school bus.  We decided that we wanted to talk to you, because you didn't look happy enough"); it wasn't necessary until recently, when I did indeed make the decision of "leave school or die" without being certain that I would be reaccepted.

Same story here. If it wasn't my demeanor, it was my weight. If it wasn't my weight, it was my appearance. If it wasn't my apperance, it's what I chose to do on my own time off school grounds. Later on other teachers would one-up their level of intruding on my personal space, to the point of dragging me into the principal office and interrogating me about my state of mind and my lunch period habits. I got to really resent when other people decide you've got a problem without consulting you about it or asking "are you ok?" before flying off the handle and deciding that, no, you're not ok. From teachers and authority figures, I appreciate that's their job. I expect a little more attempt to understand out of every day people.

And for the record, if I found someone face down in their puke who wouldn't wake up, I'd call the paramedics too. But there is a difference between that, and just plain ol' drunkeness.

[Sergius]

When you don't have enough information to diagnose the situation effectively, you plan for the worst case that fits the information you do know, until you can get more information.

You know, that kind of thinking is what made people drag people out of crashed cars (that aren't on fire) because on TV they explode... and making them paraplegic for life, when the right thing to do was wait for the paramedics to immobilize them.

It actually happens. A lot. So much that public announcements had to be made to stop that.

Good intentions aren't everything, or even always the best. Not saying this case is the same, or even if it was / wasn't the course of action, just arguing against the general logic that "doing something is always better even if you don't know!"

Granted, it's actually the opposite of what happened here (let an "expert" handle it or something). Again, not arguing against the actions of the OP, but against this particular comment.

[MorleyDev]

Maybe it's because I'm English and we have a very different culture about alcohol to America (I started drinking at 16, first time getting what I would call drunk I was 17, this is not unusual from what I know of the UK. My parents were totally cool with it too, so long as I wasn't stupid about it) but...actually this probably makes things better. By the time I'm going to nightclubs (aka. 18 here) I already have a good idea of my limits so almost never drink too much when out for it to ruin the night, and so have a lot of fun ^.^

Only time I've ever drank enough to ruin the night was the house party where I stupidly downed an entire 70cl bottle of Vodka (which I don't even remember and the next two days were horrible due to the hangover). I have a long list of reasons why things went this badly but no point in going into them xD

So yeah, people don't need to not drink until they're 21 (or 18 in the UK) or anything like that, they just need to start in a good environment for it where they can safely learn the limits and know when to stop or have people around willing to stop them ^^

criticizing altruism and empathy whilst defending the hallowed practices of drunkenness and rule-breaking.

Just saw this: Let's be practical here, rule breaking and drunkenness will always trump altruism and empathy ^^ The former are fun but can screw you over, the latter are boring and tend to screw you over. Sure life probably sucks long-term without some measure of them, but altruism and empathy still need just as much moderation as alcohol and breaking the rules for maximum profit.

[Bauglir]

@Sergius

I didn't say that action is always better than non-action. At all. Non-action is a perfectly valid response if it's likely to avoid the worst case.

@MorleyDev

I agree with that perspective. The US has a stupidly high minimum age for alcohol consumption, and that contributes to unhealthy amounts of binge drinking in a number of ways.

[Caz]

@MorleyDev

I agree with that perspective. The US has a stupidly high minimum age for alcohol consumption, and that contributes to unhealthy amounts of binge drinking in a number of ways.

Then there's how lots of families in europe drink alcohol with meals (even children of 10 will get watered-down wine or so), it's not such a "OMG ALCOHOL!" as it is in USA.

[Syreniac]

@MorleyDev

I agree with that perspective. The US has a stupidly high minimum age for alcohol consumption, and that contributes to unhealthy amounts of binge drinking in a number of ways.

Then there's how lots of families in europe drink alcohol with meals (even children of 10 will get watered-down wine or so), it's not such a "OMG ALCOHOL!" as it is in USA.

I live in the UK, and loads of my friends used to drink at meals with their parents even from a relative young age (not much and it was watered down), however, they would be just as likely as my friends who didn't drink at mealtimes to go out and down entire bottles of vodka or whatever. Furthermore, even in France which is about as liberal place as anywhere about drinking ages as anywhere has increasing problems with binge drinking.

The only conclusion I can draw from all this is that drinking really doesn't depend on family environment that much; the reasons people drink alcohol beyond a relatively small limit (The three reasons I have been able to come up with for drinking alcohol to the point of getting properly and totally drunk are 1. Stupidity, 2. Deniability and 3. To Forget RL Troubles) are not ones that actually are connected to alcohol itself.

[MorleyDev]

Like a lot of things in life knowing the limit is easy, but caring about them? That is a lot more difficult.

We all occasionally binge on unhealthy foods, or act too cruel for our own good at times, or drink more than we should, or insert any one of countless examples here. Heck, it's a very dull and boring existence if you don't throw some of those limits to the wind and go past them every and again...

[Caz]

@MorleyDev

I agree with that perspective. The US has a stupidly high minimum age for alcohol consumption, and that contributes to unhealthy amounts of binge drinking in a number of ways.

Then there's how lots of families in europe drink alcohol with meals (even children of 10 will get watered-down wine or so), it's not such a "OMG ALCOHOL!" as it is in USA.

I live in the UK, and loads of my friends used to drink at meals with their parents even from a relative young age (not much and it was watered down), however, they would be just as likely as my friends who didn't drink at mealtimes to go out and down entire bottles of vodka or whatever. Furthermore, even in France which is about as liberal place as anywhere about drinking ages as anywhere has increasing problems with binge drinking.

The only conclusion I can draw from all this is that drinking really doesn't depend on family environment that much; the reasons people drink alcohol beyond a relatively small limit (The three reasons I have been able to come up with for drinking alcohol to the point of getting properly and totally drunk are 1. Stupidity, 2. Deniability and 3. To Forget RL Troubles) are not ones that actually are connected to alcohol itself.

All true.

It's still a lot safer to get pissed in your own house with parental supervision instead of sitting on the streets/in a park and getting wasted because your parents would go apeshit at you for drinking. Imo. But yeah it does nothing to help when binge drinking is becoming such a part of culture that it's practically a given to go out at the weekend and imbibe as many colored drinks as possible before passing out.

Now... how to get healthy/productive hobbies to be taken up by everyone? 

[scriver]

Unfortunately, studies show people (Swedes, at least) who drink alchohol with their parents end up being the ones who drink more later on as well, while the best way to keep your children from lying face-down in the own puke in some park is to have a strict don't-drink approach. It won't stop them from drinking, but they won't get themselves as drunk when they are.

Sweden's alcohol culture is completely fucked up, though. It's either too little or too much, people just don't seem to be able to strike a reasonable middle. Even when people try to copy the "continent" culture it ends up being fail. This is also the reason Swedish tourists have bad reputation abroad, they can't control their drinking.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

here in portugal, virtually every main tourist-exporting country has a reputation for not being able to drink moderately... i'm guessing that's because our beer is somewhat stronger and is usually served in smaller glasses, and is usually cheaper than the rest of europe....
i think that if you guys come here to drink our beer, shame on you, you're wasting a great chance to have some of the best wines in the world for much cheaper than what you'd get at home.

edit:oh, i just found out about this

This beer has a cult status among English football supporters; many discovered it during the UEFA Euro 2004 championship in Portugal. However, its history with the supporters of Manchester United goes back into the early 1990s thanks to games against the like of F.C. Porto in the UEFA Champions League. The fondness for "Bock" has even developed a chant for trips over in Portugal – "Super Bock, superstar, gets you more pissed than Stella Artois".

[Zrk2]

Now... how to get healthy/productive hobbies to be taken up by everyone? 

I don't know about healthy or productive, but if we could just get the world addicted to DF then all their drinking would take place in the computer, not their local dive...