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[Phmcw]

I heard that some Christian believe than in heaven, God erase any bad memories from your mind (Such as "my atheist child is being tortured in hell for all eternity").

I was wondering what seemed you worse : being tortured for all eternity and still having your intellectual integrity or loosing your mind and spending staying in a fake bliss for all eternity, unable to remember your loved ones?

Edit : Ok answer this without god in mind. Just, which fate would you choose and why. Alternatively, what would be an acceptable afterlife?

[Il Palazzo]

Two things:
-Why do you label the bliss as 'fake'?
-Whomever is willing to assert that they would prefer infinite pain over lack of pain is clearly either being dishonest or not understanding the concept of eternity.

I hope you were asking a philosophical question and not just trolling some Christians.

[ChairmanPoo]

I think this was CS Lewis' schtick.

[Phmcw]

Two things:
-Why do you label the bliss as 'fake'?
-Whomever is willing to assert that they would prefer infinite pain over lack of pain is clearly either being dishonest or not understanding the concept of eternity.

Serious question ; and I'm not very interested by the opinion of hard Christians : the "god know best" argument is a bit of a game ender.

Actually your two first questions are kind of what I expected, but I cannot really understand the tough process behind them.

For me, the bliss is obviously fake, since it doesn't actually come from the situation. I'd compare it to being drugged.

And for the eternity thing, well, eternity would probably be a torture in itself, but pain can be ignored, or repressed.
Well, It's clearly a choice between two mind boggling horrible fates.

@Naxza : I'm an hard atheist, it's just an argument I've heard on the Internet, and the resulting hypothetical dilemma seemed interesting to me.

[TheBronzePickle]

Hell wasn't expressly made for humans, it's a prison for Lucifer and those angels who chose to follow him. My brother suggested the idea that God has a plan to make sure no human goes to Hell. What that plan is, or whether it's true that it exists, I can't say. It does give me a little hope, though.

[Dsarker]

Well, let's get something clear, first.

UNLESS you commit a mortal sin, you don't go to hell, period. So your 'atheist child' given in the example would have to have committed a mortal sin WHILE KNOWING THAT SUCH WAS A MORTAL SIN, WHILE BEING IN A STATE OF MENTAL WELL BEING, AND OUT OF THEIR OWN FREE WILL. Let's take, for an easy example, Hitler. If he was of a healthy mental state and knew that the holocaust would be a mortal sin, he would be culpable of a mortal sin. Following me?

Second, you cannot know that anyone is in hell. Hitler himself is possibly not in hell. The only ones we know are those who are in heaven, and those are the saints.

Thirdly, we don't know what hell is. It could be a pit of hellfire, it could be a freezing mountain. It could simply be separation from God. We don't know. Same with purgatory, and heaven isn't exactly known either.

[Phmcw]

Hell wasn't expressly made for humans, it's a prison for Lucifer and those angels who chose to follow him. My brother suggested the idea that God has a plan to make sure no human goes to Hell. What that plan is, or whether it's true that it exists, I can't say. It does give me a little hope, though.

Not according to the bible. Even in the new testament, it's very repeatedly mentioned that only few people will go to heaven. For instance that" a camel have more luck to pass into a pinhole than a rich man to go to heaven".

But that's not the question, just which fate would you choose.

[Dsarker]

Hell wasn't expressly made for humans, it's a prison for Lucifer and those angels who chose to follow him. My brother suggested the idea that God has a plan to make sure no human goes to Hell. What that plan is, or whether it's true that it exists, I can't say. It does give me a little hope, though.

Not according to the bible. Even in the new testament, it's very repeatedly mentioned that only few people will go to heaven. For instance that" a camel have more luck to pass into a pinhole than a rich man to go to heaven".

But that's not the question, just which fate would you choose.

You mean 'through the eye of a needle', a slang term at the time for what would today be a very small one-lane tollway.

[Phmcw]

Hell wasn't expressly made for humans, it's a prison for Lucifer and those angels who chose to follow him. My brother suggested the idea that God has a plan to make sure no human goes to Hell. What that plan is, or whether it's true that it exists, I can't say. It does give me a little hope, though.

Not according to the bible. Even in the new testament, it's very repeatedly mentioned that only few people will go to heaven. For instance that" a camel have more luck to pass into a pinhole than a rich man to go to heaven".

But that's not the question, just which fate would you choose.

You mean 'through the eye of a needle', a slang term at the time for what would today be a very small one-lane tollway.

The point is : it's supposed to mean few (I read the bible in French so that was my own translation). And that's far from being the only occurrence. But again, the point of the dilemma is : confronted with these choices which would you choose?

[Dsarker]

Hell wasn't expressly made for humans, it's a prison for Lucifer and those angels who chose to follow him. My brother suggested the idea that God has a plan to make sure no human goes to Hell. What that plan is, or whether it's true that it exists, I can't say. It does give me a little hope, though.

Not according to the bible. Even in the new testament, it's very repeatedly mentioned that only few people will go to heaven. For instance that" a camel have more luck to pass into a pinhole than a rich man to go to heaven".

But that's not the question, just which fate would you choose.

You mean 'through the eye of a needle', a slang term at the time for what would today be a very small one-lane tollway.

The point is : it's supposed to mean few (I read the bible in French so that was my own translation). And that's far from being the only occurrence. But again, the point of the dilemma is : confronted with these choices which would you choose?

It means that it is harder for those who are focused on material goods to want spiritual goods, not that few will get in.

As to your question, would I rather be tortured by the absence of the Unmoved Mover and any loved ones, possibly enduring intellectual torture and physical torture, and be able to remember my loved ones who may be going through the same pain I am, thus giving me emotional torture, as well as being separated from them (or maybe not, if it's going to cause me more pain), as well as remembering those in the bliss of the presence of God and being emotionally tortured by my ability to envy them,

Or not,

I would rather not.

[Phmcw]

So you'd rather not even remember them?

[Il Palazzo]

Come on, people. Let's focus on the question, not on whether the premise is grounded in reality or not. We really shouldn't turn this into another "Atheists" thread.

For me, the bliss is obviously fake, since it doesn't actually come from the situation. I'd compare it to being drugged.

"Bliss" is just "perfect happiness", it doesn't matter where it comes from, it could be well a state of drug-induced extasy, brain damage, etc. What's importamt is the end result, that is feeling happy. The fact that there might be some of your relatives suffering eternal damnation in hell is irrelevant, as you are unaware of anything bad happening - a prerequisite of bliss.

And for the eternity thing, well, eternity would probably be a torture in itself, but pain can be ignored, or repressed.
Well, It's clearly a choice between two mind boggling horrible fates.

Come now, it's just as saying that being put under anesthesia during an operation is equally bad as being vivisected.
From another angle, how are these fates equal, when one by definition is feeling pain for eternity(no, you can't ignore nor repress it - it wouldn't be hell anymore, just a warm place with interesting company) and the other one is not feeling pain ever again, and not being aware of any quality that you might today find dear(like relatives) missing.

Also, when you say that I don't believe you even for a moment, that you'd have any trouble choosing between the two. It's not Matrix when one pill gives you an easy life while the other an interesting one. It's pain or lack of pain.

[Phmcw]

There is a price to that lack of pain. But maybe I didn't experience sufficient pain to really understand what you mean. I'm afraid a sprained ankle was my worse injury ever ,which mean I've never been in real great pain so I don't fear it enough.

Intellectually, I'd still choose hell, provided it's only physical pain.

[Dsarker]

And intellectual pain, e.g., "If only I'd done X, not Y. I'd be perfectly happy."

[Phmcw]

And intellectual pain, e.g., "If only I'd done X, not Y. I'd be perfectly happy."

An interesting angle. You're thinking about the rules of your belief, I guess.
Let's say your current actions lend you in hell. Would you regret them? Even if what you were supposed to do were against your current morality?

Edit : just think of the most intolerant belief you know. Would you regret not following them if it landed you in hell.