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Author Topic: Dungeonbuilding for Adventure mode thread!  (Read 2976 times)

TheFlummox

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Dungeonbuilding for Adventure mode thread!
« on: September 15, 2011, 06:53:28 pm »

Due to Adventure mode being so . . . empty in the current release, I thought it would be fun to build some forts designed for exploration in my free time.

My goal is to take my most recently genned world and construct a number of forts based around themes, constructed to be interesting to explore, and then draw in as many invaders as possible to crush the fort so that there's an element of danger for potential explorers. Then once they're done create a thread in the Community forum and offer the uploaded save file for the enjoyment of others and just generally try to get an exchange going.

So I'm starting THIS thread to gather information about what can and can't be done in between adventure mode and fortress mode, how to work around those limitations to create enjoyable explorable environments and ideas for what to include in a fort designed with adventure mode in mind.

Post if you've got something to contribute on the matter! I'm sure this kind of thread has been made before but I'm relatively new and haven't seen any in my lurking.

I'll add a post about what happened in my first flailing attempt to make a dungeon in a minute.
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Girlinhat

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Re: Dungeonbuilding for Adventure mode thread!
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2011, 07:13:28 pm »

If you're open to hacking, just about anything is possible, really.  Runesmith in particular allows for a massive host of options, namely making any creature on the map tame and/or your civ.  With this, you can tame goblin invaders, herd them into a room, lock them in, un-tame them, and then you have a trap room full of goblins.

DFHack also provides the important Lair and Mode changes.  Lairs allow items to NOT scatter on abandon, and Mode lets you exit fort mode without abandoning, leaving things entirely intact.  Not to mention that you can take control of a dwarf or creature at-will and suddenly play in adventure mode.  This would let you, for instance, capture a goblin, put him in a dungeon, then swpa to adventure mode to control the goblin, and play the dungeon as "I'm a captured goblin trying to escape these naked beards."

I've been idly working on/thinking of this myself.  Got a fair world genned and started an embark to make a dungeon, but I keep getting bogged down by perfectionist thinking and "would this go good here?  Hmm..."

TheFlummox

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Re: Dungeonbuilding for Adventure mode thread!
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2011, 07:15:51 pm »

My first prototype dungeon didn't work as intended: creatures left in built cages don't remain in those cages (as far as I've seen), but instead seem to find their way out and roam around the ruins of the fort. So, putting creatures around at present is a bit random. I wanted to chain up "encounters" by connecting gobbo cages to the lever that opened the way to the next area but that's out. Including encounters in a dungeon may have to involve gathering up dwarves in burrows and releasing foes upon them wherever you want the monsters to be found once you've switched to Adventure. I noticed that the goblins that I let destroy my fort seemed to be found near where they were when the fortress fell, but that'll require testing unless it's already a known how creatures are distributed post-collapse (I haven't seen info about this on the wiki or anywhere else, so, come at me).

Doors linked to levers don't work as barriers between rooms since the adventurer can just knock them down or pick the lock, but floodgates make for a fine replacement. Floor hatches can't be picked or bashed down by an adventurer so they make for a toggleable barrier across Z-levels.

Bridges can't be hooked up while raised, apparently. It desynchs them from the lever being On/Off, so you can't leave a bridge up without it just being a wall. It'd be nice to be able to turn bridges into some kind of catapult hazard or smashing hazard but since pressure plates disappear, like all traps, in Adventure mode there's not much of a way to work that out. Can't build a lever on a bridge anyway. Bridges mostly just make for elaborate barriers between Z-levels, although they could easily be turned into an offensive weapon for the adventurer if positioned correctly. Unfortunately I'm looking for ways to harm the invader more than anything.

It seems like any trap using the environment to kill will have to suffice for endangering the lives of hardy adventurers: magma, drowning, flooding, cave-ins, FB extract spattered all over a hallway or spread around by water, deconstructing platforms, pressurized magma/water cannons. Perhaps trying to guide flocks of skeletal buzzards into a room involving a one-tile-wide bridge over a deathly chasm and hoping they stick around? Combusting stockpiles of booze in lead barrels and burning lignite death hallways are both going to be necessary for flavour, and I'm pretty sure working a freezing trap that the adventurer has to puzzle out (or guess the right lever) into a dungeon would work. I'm also imagining combat over magma balancing on thin catwalks, then being forced to pull levers to raise floodgates that just so happen to drop cave-in tiles splashing magma everywhere and generating magma mist. Really any trap that can be self-activated and that doesn't require a pressure plate or weapon/cage trap is there to be used against Urist McExplorer.

Leaving rewards in lead bins, of course, worked out fantastic. They stayed exactly where I left them. Lead bins = treasure chests. I packed them full of coins and then remembered that currency is worthless outside of a civ. Artifacts make for good enough rewards, especially if they're weapons/armour. Since fortresses are such a mess post-collapse I'm seeing it necessary to dump 99% of all unnecessary goods from the site just to keep the place clean. It's hilarious to find a dwarven junkyard but it's a damnable eyesore if you're not going for a junk-themed dungeon/temple of doom.

I'm going to start another prototype fort tomorrow and test out some things, namely creature distribution post-collapse and the viability of various traps. This means I'll have to build some very dangerous things I have no experience building at all, so, that'll be Fun. Cordoning off but not killing all titans and FBs will also be part of the deal.
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TheFlummox

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Re: Dungeonbuilding for Adventure mode thread!
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2011, 07:22:28 pm »

If you're open to hacking, just about anything is possible, really.  With this, you can tame goblin invaders, herd them into a room, lock them in, un-tame them, and then you have a trap room full of goblins.

DFHack also provides the important Lair and Mode changes.  Lairs allow items to NOT scatter on abandon, and Mode lets you exit fort mode without abandoning, leaving things entirely intact.

Well there goes my need for creature placement testing! Thank Armok for DFHack. I doubt anyone will really care if the dungeons they're delving into are artificially processed. It's the DM's job to hack together something interesting from the tools you've got. Besides, the canon justification for dungeons in-world will be that the dwarves of a particular civ are testing the mettle of foreign adventurers and thus are curating these embarks specifically for that purpose.

So, I'll spend the day having a look at Runesmith too then. I suppose if anyone posts saying that hacking is bad bad bad no matter the reason then I can try to make a dungeon or two completely vanilla and by the rules.
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Girlinhat

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Re: Dungeonbuilding for Adventure mode thread!
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2011, 07:29:53 pm »

Doors linked to levers don't work as barriers between rooms since the adventurer can just knock them down or pick the lock
Really?  I wasn't aware an adventurer can pick locks?  Of course, that might be the [CAN_OPEN_DOORS] tag that allows creatures to walk through doors...
pressure plates disappear, like all traps, in Adventure mode there's not much of a way to work that out.
Go into the init and set [ADVENTURE_TRAPS:YES] or something like that.  They're off by default, but when you turn them on they function as normal.  They're currently off, because weapon traps tend to be one-hit kill.  But, some pressure plates and such would work fantastic because those don't have to be instantly fatal.
Leaving rewards in lead bins, of course, worked out fantastic. They stayed exactly where I left them. Lead bins = treasure chests. I packed them full of coins and then remembered that currency is worthless outside of a civ. Artifacts make for good enough rewards, especially if they're weapons/armour.
Discussing this with someone else, we decided to make it score-based, which means becoming meta-game where the game is outside the game.  Every dorfbuck counts for 1 point, so a microcline mug would be like 10 points, and an adamantine breastplate would score you several thousand.  This lets you distribute points very specifically and with flavor.  Gold mugs in the dining hall worth 5,000 combined points?  Loose rock crafts in the peasant's rooms worth a combined 10,000 points?  An un-built statue of the death of the mayor in the main hall worth 2,000 points?  Use of art images, statues, figurines, and specific item types can encourage some realistically placed and environmentally rich dungeons.

The other score part was the number of monsters killed, but I think a pure loot based point system would rock as well.

As for placing loot and creatures, I listed that above.  But, you could do a "dry run" as a dwarf, tucking the crafts into constructed chests and coffers and arranging the scenery just-so, and THEN swap to a human or a different dwarf adventurer (by quitting and restarting, not modeswap) and do a real dungeon run.
Besides, the canon justification for dungeons in-world will be that the dwarves of a particular civ are testing the mettle of foreign adventurers and thus are curating these embarks specifically for that purpose.
Actually, my justification for it was "They're dwarves.  They have constructed a stone temple of hell on earth, and then they lived in it.  My god what do these mushrooms do to their heads, to make them think that living amongst spikes and magma tunnels is a good idea?"

Lormax

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Re: Dungeonbuilding for Adventure mode thread!
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2011, 08:41:59 pm »

I'm following this thread...this makes me want to blow some of the dust off old AD&D or Pathfinder modules and recreate the dungeons in DF. 

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Girlinhat

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Re: Dungeonbuilding for Adventure mode thread!
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2011, 08:49:10 pm »

Once we get edible syndromes and curses things will be a lot more fun for dungeon builders...

"You eat the Purple Apple."
"You grow hair all over your body and feel as if you are stronger."

TheFlummox

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Re: Dungeonbuilding for Adventure mode thread!
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2011, 09:01:16 pm »

Really?  I wasn't aware an adventurer can pick locks?  Of course, that might be the [CAN_OPEN_DOORS] tag that allows creatures to walk through doors...

You've got two options when you meet a door: Bash it down or pick the lock. Both are automatic successes since there's no implementation of lockpicking or forcing objects. Adventure mode is fairly barren right now.

Go into the init and set [ADVENTURE_TRAPS:YES] or something like that.  They're off by default, but when you turn them on they function as normal.  They're currently off, because weapon traps tend to be one-hit kill.  But, some pressure plates and such would work fantastic because those don't have to be instantly fatal.

That should be a must since pressure plates are so useful for big machines in-game. As for weapon traps: a friendly and nice DM could load in nothing but training axes and elven swords, but I've never met one.

Thanks for mentioning these modding tags by the way. I'm an absolute dunce when it comes to the raws.

Discussing this with someone else, we decided to make it score-based, which means becoming meta-game where the game is outside the game.  Every dorfbuck counts for 1 point, so a microcline mug would be like 10 points, and an adamantine breastplate would score you several thousand.  This lets you distribute points very specifically and with flavor.  Gold mugs in the dining hall worth 5,000 combined points?  Loose rock crafts in the peasant's rooms worth a combined 10,000 points?  An un-built statue of the death of the mayor in the main hall worth 2,000 points?  Use of art images, statues, figurines, and specific item types can encourage some realistically placed and environmentally rich dungeons.

That would be the system to use for the thread with people posting their results and tallying it up. Otherwise you're just exploring for fun since 'profit' in Adventure mode as it exists now can be had through selling pebbles. Incentive to explore would need to be multi-pronged, I feel, for the standards I'd want to set in dungeon making: offer up only the most visually interesting loot (strange artifacts and hilarious statues) and give the runner something cool to interact with while they're hunting. A water-park complete with lever-controlled waterslides, for instance, or a giant vault opened only with magma pistons. All of that forty goodness but with rewards to hunt down, and extra good if you can stash the really valuable stuff in places only a madman would try and go. Like the bottom of the ocean.

A dry-run would allow you to set up all of the reward dominos. Runesmith can only really steer critters into X room, right?


I'm following this thread...this makes me want to blow some of the dust off old AD&D or Pathfinder modules and recreate the dungeons in DF. 

Recreating the Tomb of Terrors in DF would be highly appropriate for setting, but you'd need to mod in liches and all kinds of fancypants magical whatnot. I keep feeling like I should wait at least for the next release to really get into making dungeons (bunch of Adventure mode interactions are being added, sounds like) but it looks like Toady'll take a while yet.
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Girlinhat

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Re: Dungeonbuilding for Adventure mode thread!
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2011, 09:47:14 pm »

I have a strict mindset that the init and d_init files are NOT modding, and NOT cheating.  A lot of people say "you can't set the pop cap to 50, that's cheating" but really, let's be honest.  The init and d_init are the [Escape] options window that wasn't included in-game.  Instead it was included out of game in a .txt because DF isn't the most polished program and it's MUCH easier to put options outside the program to be read. 

Running the dungeon, really, is pointless.  There's no true reward, although items of value can be sold to merchants easier than coins can be used, even this is moot because adventure mode is fairly barren.  You get 500 gold coins and what?  What're you going to do with it all, really?  The whole point of any dungeon would be 1: The challenge of puzzles and traps and combat, 2: The social of talking about success or failure on the forums, and/or 3: the RP value of including a story within the dungeon.

Puzzles and combat, you have to handle that yourself when making the dungeon.

Talking and bragging, you'll do this a lot better if there's a scoring method or some amount of randomly-generated content that makes each play unique and able to recall the strange twists that happened.  If we're going to do random dungeons, then we can just leave that for Toady to implement or play another Roguelike, because the joy of building the dungeon is actually building it.  The scoring via dorfbuck value is a fairly simple but workable means to determine success/failure.  It encourages the player to explore all the nooks and crannies and look for paths that aren't easily visible.  I mean, the large waterfall in the dining hall is neat, but who would think to swim through the drainage pipe on the off chance that there's a single granite boat sitting on a submerged ledge?  Someone trying to beat their high score, that's who!  Especially if you say ahead of time, "There is X☼ treasure hidden here, find it all" then players have something to do, and can tell, or not, the location of spoilers and tricks and whatnot.

The roleplay value, is odd...  DF does very little to allow the DM room for expansion.  But, shortcuts can be taken.  For instance, you could mod in a dozen new stone types, each the same unique color, like bright green, something you rarely see.  Each stone has a different name, and each is placed at a specific point in the dungeon.  Included with the world data, you should send a folder of text documents by the same name.  This way, when a player walks into a room of cast obsidian and sees a single bright green tile of "Entrance Block Floor" then they can look in the folder for a text file named "Entrance" and read the descriptions/hints/warnings that are listed there.  This way, you can store vast blocks of text outside the game, and have cue cards for when to read the specific files.  There are other methods, but this is the most reliable and simplest that I've come up with.  But this is Dwarf Fortress, the average player is used to running the game with 2-5 windows open at a time.  It's a game of pieces and utilities, and I'm certain that any rational player won't mind having to thumb over to read a well-written description of their surroundings.  "Rational" being relative, of course, and meaning "irrational bearded midget".

Corneria

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Re: Dungeonbuilding for Adventure mode thread!
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2011, 10:34:31 pm »

I've been meaning to do this. Will post results.
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Corneria

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Re: Dungeonbuilding for Adventure mode thread!
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2011, 10:56:26 pm »

Better yet, I've seen the idea of community adv. maps with several forts tossed around (and one inactive one I poked through). I would enjoy having non-dungeon as well as various megaprojects on a map for exploration. Pass the map around to let people build, constantly adding new content for exploration. I'm gonna start a thread for it; would it be fine here or should I just go with the community games section?
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TheFlummox

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Re: Dungeonbuilding for Adventure mode thread!
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2011, 02:40:45 pm »

Better yet, I've seen the idea of community adv. maps with several forts tossed around (and one inactive one I poked through). I would enjoy having non-dungeon as well as various megaprojects on a map for exploration. Pass the map around to let people build, constantly adding new content for exploration. I'm gonna start a thread for it; would it be fine here or should I just go with the community games section?

Community! I'd join it. In fact, I will if I see it.
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Girlinhat

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Re: Dungeonbuilding for Adventure mode thread!
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2011, 07:06:08 pm »

Either way, Sir Flumm, I think I'd like to do a community and/or DF:MP map with you to design the thing.  Seems like we could come up with something... dangerous.

TheFlummox

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Re: Dungeonbuilding for Adventure mode thread!
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2011, 07:26:34 pm »

Either way, Sir Flumm, I think I'd like to do a community and/or DF:MP map with you to design the thing.  Seems like we could come up with something... dangerous.

Sounds fun! You said you have a world prepared? I've been spending all day trying to gen one that seems appropriate for wandering adventurers and just settled for a big island continent with amusing region names such as "The Scintillating Love-Swamps."

I'm going to run another site test soon using Runesmith/DFLair/etc. I want to see what you can actually do with the tools. Being able to keep things in place is good but so is having some random scatter to a degree. You mentioned that Runesmith could be used to funnel gobbos into a room and keep them there? I'll have to play around with this stuff a bit.

I think the scoring system is a great idea in order to give the explorers incentive. My plan for if I ever do end up making a dungeon-populated world would be to make a certain number of sites, get them set up, and then make a community thread and distribute the save file with a text document written like "The Suicidal Idiot's Guide to Exploring the Dwarven Ruins of the Everlasting Planets." The text file would have some flavour notes on the various sites and, most importantly, their names and their contained wealth. Then the dungeon runners post their exploits in the thread along with their score for each dungeon (I'd have to enforce spoilers for posts and stress 'no cheating?'). Once their adventurer dies they have to start over again from zero and try to beat their score. I guess the first one to do a 100% run of every dungeon in one life would be given a fun title as reigning champ of dungeon exploration complete with big fancy text on the OP.

Anyway, this next test site will involve just seeing what will stay in place and what won't given the tools available. I also need to figure out how to mod in forging human-sized gear to the dwarven section of the default entities, and also consider what other modding of the raws would help make the whole thing more interesting and streamlined.

Also, besides the topic, is there any way to force the generation of Elven/Dwarven/Goblin sites in Adventure mode or is that locked out completely until Toady gets to work on the Army Arc?
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Corneria

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Re: Dungeonbuilding for Adventure mode thread!
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2011, 09:35:28 pm »

Either way, Sir Flumm, I think I'd like to do a community and/or DF:MP map with you to design the thing.  Seems like we could come up with something... dangerous.

Sounds fun! You said you have a world prepared? I've been spending all day trying to gen one that seems appropriate for wandering adventurers and just settled for a big island continent with amusing region names such as "The Scintillating Love-Swamps."

I'm going to run another site test soon using Runesmith/DFLair/etc. I want to see what you can actually do with the tools. Being able to keep things in place is good but so is having some random scatter to a degree. You mentioned that Runesmith could be used to funnel gobbos into a room and keep them there? I'll have to play around with this stuff a bit.

I think the scoring system is a great idea in order to give the explorers incentive. My plan for if I ever do end up making a dungeon-populated world would be to make a certain number of sites, get them set up, and then make a community thread and distribute the save file with a text document written like "The Suicidal Idiot's Guide to Exploring the Dwarven Ruins of the Everlasting Planets." The text file would have some flavour notes on the various sites and, most importantly, their names and their contained wealth. Then the dungeon runners post their exploits in the thread along with their score for each dungeon (I'd have to enforce spoilers for posts and stress 'no cheating?'). Once their adventurer dies they have to start over again from zero and try to beat their score. I guess the first one to do a 100% run of every dungeon in one life would be given a fun title as reigning champ of dungeon exploration complete with big fancy text on the OP.

Anyway, this next test site will involve just seeing what will stay in place and what won't given the tools available. I also need to figure out how to mod in forging human-sized gear to the dwarven section of the default entities, and also consider what other modding of the raws would help make the whole thing more interesting and streamlined.

Also, besides the topic, is there any way to force the generation of Elven/Dwarven/Goblin sites in Adventure mode or is that locked out completely until Toady gets to work on the Army Arc?
You could make them live in towns.
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