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[Mindmaker]

If you want to get better at the game, why don't you quit being a whiny buttface and play it through.

Do I want to get better at it? I honestly don't know anymore...

The "scumhunting" on day 1 didn't have any results. I didn't even see one good argument...
And still I'm the one being "useless" and doing "nothing". This is so tireing...

[Mindmaker]

More stuff

Seven is still a lot, especially if you admit some of them are weak and shaky.

If you had to reduce it to three, which points would you pick? Which posts would you pick to show your points?

Why would I want to reduce it to three?  Why seven "still a lot"?  Isn't the whole point here to oust scum with as much proof behind our accusations as possible?  And even if I admitted that one point is not as strong, since I think it is significant enough to note, why not include it with everything else and let the other players judge what I've presented for themselves? 

I know you're an IC this game, but I'm not a person that just accepts what I'm being told.  If you're here to teach, and I'm supposed to learn, then you're going to have to tell me reasons.

Because you're not actually hunting scum. Reason enough?

[Jim Groovester]

The "scumhunting" on day 1 didn't have any results. I didn't even see one good argument...
And still I'm the one being "useless" and doing "nothing". This is so tireing...

Then there should be lots of stuff you can give people crap for. Why not go find it?

Who do you suspect now and why aren't you questioning them?

Why would I want to reduce it to three?  Why seven "still a lot"?  Isn't the whole point here to oust scum with as much proof behind our accusations as possible?  And even if I admitted that one point is not as strong, since I think it is significant enough to note, why not include it with everything else and let the other players judge what I've presented for themselves? 

I know you're an IC this game, but I'm not a person that just accepts what I'm being told.  If you're here to teach, and I'm supposed to learn, then you're going to have to tell me reasons.

I'm going to let you in on a little secret. It's actually not a secret since I say this pretty often.

You only need the most convincing case, not the most comprehensive, and these are not the same things. You should only put forth your strongest and most convincing pieces of evidence. If you throw in more but weaker evidence, you're diluting the effectiveness of your argument.

The most convincing argument is also the one that's presented best. Listing seven points of varying strength against a player is not the best way to present your argument. I actually had to do a little digging myself to see that you weren't completely off base about your case on Mindmaker. I'd rather not have to do digging of my own to see if your case is actually good. You should be able to present it in a way that makes your case and its strength readily apparent.

It may annoy you that people are lazy and don't want to do any work to understand your case, but that's how it is. We all have lives and such and don't want to spend all our free time fact checking people's arguments.

I asked you to condense your argument down because I think it could be better presented with less points. There are good points in there, but it's hard to tell that they're there the way it is.

[Powder Miner]

I didn't find anything that looked scummy that hadn't already been jumped upon, unfortunately.
So I jumped around trying to uncover something scummy.
Like I want to go after Mindmaker, but Shakerag already has him covered for the lurking.

Mormota. YOu've been posting less than even Mindmaker. Care to explain the lurking?

[Jim Groovester]

I didn't find anything that looked scummy that hadn't already been jumped upon, unfortunately.
So I jumped around trying to uncover something scummy.
Like I want to go after Mindmaker, but Shakerag already has him covered for the lurking.

So you're going to tell me that for everything you found scummy you had the exact same questions to ask as everybody else.

That's completely unbelievable bullshit.

How about instead of giving a shit what other people are asking your targets, you ask the questions you want answered? How many fucking times do I have to tell you this?

[Orangebottle]

Avenge me! I know you can do it!

[ed boy]

I didn't find anything that looked scummy that hadn't already been jumped upon, unfortunately.
So I jumped around trying to uncover something scummy.
Like I want to go after Mindmaker, but Shakerag already has him covered for the lurking.

Bollocks. If person A is pressuring person B, that does not forbid you from pressuring person B. Two people digging away at one person gives better results that one. I don't like how you're doing things, Power Miner. You're too concerned with keeping up with the scumhunting that other people are doing to do any scumhunting of your own. Have you got a proper explanation?

[Powder Miner]

*Powder Miner

Because my main concerns were lurking, and it really doesn't do much good to have two people asking the same guy why he was lurking. They'll get the same answer.

[Jim Groovester]

*Powder Miner

Because my main concerns were lurking, and it really doesn't do much good to have two people asking the same guy why he was lurking. They'll get the same answer.

There's what you think you should do.

Then there's what the fucking IC is telling you to do.

Until these two things are the same, you should be doing the latter.

[IronyOwl]

Shakerag:

Why aren't you pressing anyone? You've declared a lynchvote, but otherwise have nothing- no suspicions, no questions out, not even any opinions beyond Mindmaker's scumminess. Don't you want to find Mindmaker's partner as well?

What makes you think Mindmaker is lurking because he's scum, as opposed to lurking because he's disinterested or busy?

What makes you say Mindmaker's vote on mipe9 was a bandwagon and not just being the third person to vote a scummy player?

What made you think jumping onto mipe9 was scummy, even after Jim explained why your explanation for why he was town was bad?



Mindmaker:

Do I want to get better at it? I honestly don't know anymore...

The "scumhunting" on day 1 didn't have any results. I didn't even see one good argument...
And still I'm the one being "useless" and doing "nothing". This is so tireing...

This sounds like you don't actually understand what you should be doing, and are thus getting frustrated because going through the motions isn't telling you anything.

Basically, some of us aren't what we claim we are. It's an act. Townies have Goal X, Scum have Look Like Goal X While Achieving Goal Y. So somewhere, at some point, traces of that are going to slip through- your job is to find that. That's why certain behaviors are often considered scumtells, they imply someone doesn't really have Goal X and/or really has Goal Y.

So, that's what all the questioning and looking and thinking is aimed at- Is this person what they say they are? Are they acting like they would be if they're town? Why are they doing that? It's more art than science, but the basic premise is pretty simple. You just have to interact with them until you figure them out.



Powder Miner:

Stop being a lazy fuck and actually hunt some scum. Pointing at lurkers all game is not scumhunting.

Furthermore, if all you care about is lurkers, why would you give a damn how much Mindmaker's lurking when you've got Mormota to go after instead?

[Shakerag]

Geh.

@Jim:  Well, if I was going to pick three, then I'd say the things that feel like the biggest scumtells to me would be:
1) Practically not scumhunting at all
2) Reacting very defensively when suspicion is cast on him
3) Only action of note after 4 days is hopping on mipe9's bandwagon

Which posts to support those points?  Well, 1) is, like, all of them - 2) as I mentioned above - 3) post [6] and then post [19], pretty much for the timestamps. 

@IronyOwl: I ... was ... am pressing Mindmaker?  I've noted a number of suspicions before now ... but I'm focusing on him because that's who I feel I have the strongest read on.  Yes, I'd like to find his partner, but Jim was ragging on my ass earlier about trying to call the scumteam ... "Calling scumteams tends to work out very badly for the town. You'll almost always be wrong until somebody actually flips scum.  Until that happens, don't look at what two players are doing in relation to each other for scumtells. Just look at each player individually, and judge each player individually."

I don't think Mindmaker is lurking, he's got a number of posts.  If he was disinterested or busy ... then he wouldn't be posting. 

I think his vote was scummy because he had done nothing for four days prior, and then suddenly decided to vote on mipe9.  Everyone was looking askance at mipe9 right about then, so I'm sure he thought it wouldn't look strange to be hopping on.

Well, Jim can piss and moan about this all he wants, but I'm still going with my intuition there.  It was too crazy of an act for scum to try in a beginner's game, and I have to think the scumteam was looking at that scene as a gift from heaven, because it would be very easy to mislynch mipe9 after something like that.  So anyone jumping on mipe9 (and/or trying to get other people to weigh in on him) were certainly candidates for investigation.  Mrmm.  I don't feel like that explanation is coming out right, but I can't think of a better way to phrase it, so I'm hoping you get what I'm trying to say.  Maybe I'll come back to that in the morning.

[Mormota]

I didn't find anything that looked scummy that hadn't already been jumped upon, unfortunately.
So I jumped around trying to uncover something scummy.
Like I want to go after Mindmaker, but Shakerag already has him covered for the lurking.

Mormota. YOu've been posting less than even Mindmaker. Care to explain the lurking?

Se-fucking-riously? Dariush already explained. This was PFP.

[IronyOwl]

Shakerag:

Which posts to support those points?  Well, 1) is, like, all of them

You can still provide one as an example. The closest he's come or furthest he's been might be good ones.

@IronyOwl: I ... was ... am pressing Mindmaker?

Really? Let's see:

He's done nothing to help the town side.  He's been responding defensively, and has poor justification for his actions.  He's scum, and I would like to see him hang.

How does this pressure him? You let him know you want him dead and roughly explain why, but you don't ask him anything directly and you don't give him any reason to think your opinion of him might change. Where does the panic come from? Where does the new data come from? If you're not accomplishing anything, it's not really pressure.

Yes, I'd like to find his partner, but Jim was ragging on my ass earlier about trying to call the scumteam ... "Calling scumteams tends to work out very badly for the town. ... Just look at each player individually, and judge each player individually."

Nowhere does he say "ignore other players until your current target is dead." You're not doing anything with Mindmaker except discussing your presentation on him with Jim, and you're not doing anything at all with anyone else. Do you feel you're accomplishing as much as you could be right now?

I don't think Mindmaker is lurking, he's got a number of posts.  If he was disinterested or busy ... then he wouldn't be posting. 

What about active lurking, then? What is it about his uselessness that screams "scum" rather than "lazy" or "busy" or anything else?

I think his vote was scummy because he had done nothing for four days prior, and then suddenly decided to vote on mipe9.  Everyone was looking askance at mipe9 right about then, so I'm sure he thought it wouldn't look strange to be hopping on.

That's backwards. If you already know he's scum, this perfectly explains why he did that. If you're trying to figure out whether he's scum or not, it only helps if that's the only reason he'd possibly act like that. So I'll ask you again: What was it about his mipe9 vote that seemed like scum hopping on a bandwagon rather than town hopping on a bandwagon?

Well, Jim can piss and moan about this all he wants, but I'm still going with my intuition there.  It was too crazy of an act for scum to try in a beginner's game

Ehhh, kind of. There are cases where someone can act so badly that it seems highly unlikely that they've got a team (and in this case, personal IC), but making ironclad, blanket assumptions tends to end incredibly badly at some point. Don't assume that just because you were right this time you'll always be right, or even that you were right for the right reasons.

For instance, consider the basic premise- that it was "too crazy" for scum to do. Then... why would town do it? What benefit do they get out of it? If your whole argument is "scum wouldn't do this because it'd be bad for them," then it's pretty ridiculous to say that they're town either. More specific details, like having a teammate, can make this sort of reasoning actually plausible, but you're still just making it more likely that someone would or wouldn't do something under certain circumstances.

Secondly, and more simply, if only town would do X, it's automatically something scum might do as well to look town. If your reasoning was sound, wouldn't it be an excellent scum ploy, and exactly the sort of thing a scum IC might recommend?

and I have to think the scumteam was looking at that scene as a gift from heaven, because it would be very easy to mislynch mipe9 after something like that.  So anyone jumping on mipe9 (and/or trying to get other people to weigh in on him) were certainly candidates for investigation.

This is good reasoning. "Investigation" has to mean "scumhunting," however, not just noticing that they're useless, declaring them scum, and sitting around until they die.

[ed boy]

*Powder Miner

Because my main concerns were lurking, and it really doesn't do much good to have two people asking the same guy why he was lurking. They'll get the same answer.

Not good enough. You can't just sit back and point out people who haven't been posting much. There's a lot more to scumhunting than finding lurker. Go back and look at people's posts and what the content in them is. That's what proper scumhunting is, and that's something you've failed to do so far. Having two people ask questions about someone's lurking may not have any benefit over one person, but having two people pick apart one person's posts will certainly be better than one person. You're not scumhunting at all, and I don't like that, Powder Miner.

[Dariush]

Fine, than replace me.

So, do you really need a replacement?