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Author Topic: Turkey and Israel  (Read 5681 times)

Azkul

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Re: Turkey and Israel
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2011, 06:16:09 pm »

What is more shocking than the belligerence of Israel's actions, is that the international media treats Israel as a nation more similar to Western-European nations, diplomatically, than a rogue state like North Korea.
North Korea is no worse than Israel, in terms of crimes against international law.

As long as the US continues to support the Israeli warmongering and their terrorising of the Palestinian population, the goal of peace in the middle-east is unachievable.
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Africa

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Re: Turkey and Israel
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2011, 09:52:26 am »

It's not just Israel though, Erdogan needs to raise a fuzz every now and then to avoid people catching on to his religious agenda. Though his agenda is mild by Middle-Eastern standards, pushing a religious agenda in Turkey is like pushing a pro-Chechnya agenda in Russia (though the Turkish military tends to be more fond of bloodless coups than sudden disappearances)

Now, I may not be an expert here, but Erdogan has effectively removed most of the officers who could start the coup and forced the rest to resign just so the only thing honestly stabilizing Turkey when things go down is out of the way. Nothing's stopping him now, especially after he got elected the third time in a row with no signs of his popularity wavering...

Yeah, I don't know anything about Turkish internal politics, but it wouldn't surprise me that they have reasons like everybody else to distract the population from what they're doing by focusing attention on some chosen bad guy. Given that they both have oppressed ethnic minorities to take attention away from, and both have governments that are possibly or openly anti-democratic, another way to look tough is probably incentive enough to keep them feuding.

The thing is, as Israel's leftists have been pointing out forever, Israel can't really afford to piss off more of its neighbors. They're already surrounded by countries that, even if they're no longer mad about the mere existence of a Jewish state, are definitely mad about what it's doing to the Palestinians. Their international support mostly consists of countries that either feel they owe it to them because of guilt, or else because their populations are in love with Israel. During the year I lived there, barely a day went by when there wasn't a newspaper editorial pointing out that holding on to the West Bank will make Jews a minority in Israel within decades, that holding on to the West Bank will do away with Israeli democracy sooner than that, that the religious-rightist coalition leading Israel is fundamentally anti-democratic as evidenced by the laws they keep passing taking various civil rights away from ethnic and ideological minorities, and that not behaving like a responsible democracy is going to alienate the world and leave Israel out on its ass. Nobody in leadership really cares, and neither do a surprising amount of average joe citizens, it seemed. Beefing with the one Islamic country that they had a really good relationship with is retarded, but it doesn't really surprise me. The whole placing value on toughness and independence thing makes sense given Jewish history, but at some point you have to admit that everyone is pissed off at you because of how you're acting, and not just because of your religion.

As for Turkey, I have no idea. God forbid Islamists start gaining popularity there, though.
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Strife26

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Re: Turkey and Israel
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2011, 10:30:37 pm »

What is more shocking than the belligerence of Israel's actions, is that the international media treats Israel as a nation more similar to Western-European nations, diplomatically, than a rogue state like North Korea.
North Korea is no worse than Israel, in terms of crimes against international law.

As long as the US continues to support the Israeli warmongering and their terrorising of the Palestinian population, the goal of peace in the middle-east is unachievable.

Really? Israel's blockade got declared legal by the UN last time I check, as well as the fact that people tend to rocket Israel every. day. Daily rocket attacks ain't fun. Israel's hardline response isn't optimal, but every last soft approach they've ever tried gets derailed by hardliners in both camps.
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mainiac

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Re: Turkey and Israel
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2011, 10:33:02 pm »

Many parts of the blockade are unnecessary and downright cruel.
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Duuvian

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Re: Turkey and Israel
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2011, 02:44:08 am »

Many parts of the blockade are unnecessary and downright cruel.

I think that this is a contributor to the rocket attacks Strife mentioned, due to common sense.
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Grakelin

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Re: Turkey and Israel
« Reply #20 on: September 12, 2011, 03:49:34 am »

But are they cruel because of rocket attacks or are the rocket attacks because they are cruel?

The never-ending cycle of Pan-Arab conflict.
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Re: Turkey and Israel
« Reply #21 on: September 12, 2011, 03:51:45 am »

Many parts of the blockade are unnecessary and downright cruel.

I think that this is a contributor to the rocket attacks Strife mentioned, due to common sense.
Is it common sense to lob rockets (or phosphorous grenades for that matter) at innocents when faced with a blockade (or paramilitary threat)?
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Grakelin

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Re: Turkey and Israel
« Reply #22 on: September 12, 2011, 03:52:51 am »

Yes, because the conflict has seeped into the value system of people living in the Middle East who now believe everybody from another nation is equally guilty of the crimes of their nation.
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Phmcw

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Re: Turkey and Israel
« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2011, 06:56:39 am »

And that it's what you must expect to happen is such cases.
The problem in this conflict is that Israel, having superior force, see no reason to compromise, and that Palestinians, having been mistreated, see no reason to accept Israel existence.
Currently, the Hamas and Israel's government are equally guilty of the same crimes, the Hamas is just stupider.

The actions of Turkey make sense is this context. Plus taking an hard line with Israel is guaranteed to bring an increase of popularity both with the European left and the Turkish electorate. At this point only the US still support Israel unambiguously, which explain part of your unpopularity in the region.
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Africa

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Re: Turkey and Israel
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2011, 07:24:51 am »

Yes, because the conflict has seeped into the value system of people living in the Middle East who now believe everybody from another nation is equally guilty of the crimes of their nation.

It's always good to have somebody who's a certified expert on the unique psychology of the people in question. Please, tell us more about the mysterious workings of the Oriental Mind.
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Heliman

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Re: Turkey and Israel
« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2011, 07:43:53 am »

Africa, this sort of thing is not unique. Just look at us and china, Nazi Germany and russia and pre world war II japan and china. It's a common occurance.
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: Turkey and Israel
« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2011, 08:10:10 am »

And in that particular context both sides do it, and feed back one another.
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shadenight123

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Re: Turkey and Israel
« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2011, 08:22:48 am »

(there are in the following post historical facts plus personal opinions.)

From what i can recall from the israelian-arabs wars, when people voted to place israelians there where they are now, even though all the confinant arabs countries were against, it still passed and Israel was born.
From there on, (always looking at the conflicts here) the 1948-1949 conflicts saw the arab league trying to conquer the country, but they were utterly smashed into pieces, and israelians conquered through a war (which they themselves HAD not started, it was the countries of the period that had approved them there. They could have asked for russian territory, but it seems they preferred sand to snow) and they conquered the territories of the ENEMY. over 800.000 jewish people had to emigrate from arab countries to israel, due to arising tensions.
then, we reach the israelian-egypt wars of 1956. when the great idiot of the period, (the egyptian president) decide to nationalize the suez canal, israel went "meh" french and england were angry as hell, (it was THEIR property after all, they had built it), but then the great idiot decided that israel, being jewish, (and him being of pan-arabism league) should not use the suez canal. he asked for it once more. french and england did not military intervene do to soviet risk of intervention, Israel, on the other hand, once more smashed to pieces the arabs. they even conquered the Sinai, only because the onu asked to give it back, was it done later.
when in 1967 egypt once more closed the suez canal to the israelian, the second casus belli (and the six day war) was declared and the entire Egyptian, Sirian, and giordanian AEREAL force was ANNIHILATED. the entire peninsula of sinai, gaza line, and Cisgiordania with Jerusalemm were conquered in SIX DAMN DAYS. you know what it means? in six days, israel doubled it's size, against three other countries, surrounded by enemies on all sides. and here comes the problem.
Israel conquered the territories and wished to use them.
the arabs states being sore losers wanted them back.
the onu mediated, proposing that, if the arab states were to recognise israel, israel might have given the territories back. but the Front for the liberation of the palestina was born, and until the death of arafat it kept going.
then on the 1973, UNASKED, and NOT-declared, and with NO casus belli, egypt and siria attacked israel, rapidly conquering the suez canal, when israel answered with tanks, egyptians had to hide in the anti-air defense position and hope the blu helmets of the onu came with a solution. in the end the onu went with a pacific diplomatic solution. but had it gone long enough, it's undoubt egyptians forces would have succumbed being trapped and entrenched.

in 1979 egypt recognises israels, and gets back the sinai.
in 1980 israel considers jerusalem capital of israel, and grabs the golan planes, already occupied.
in 1981 the egyptians presidents gets assassinated by islamic fundamentalist of the "jihad" group
in 1982 israel begins procedures to fight off the terrorist organization for free palestina.
here we have the massacres of the populations in the refugee camps, all done by a filo-israelian Elie Hobeika and by the forces of the south of liban, (cristianic forces) NOT by the israelian government or troops. they did however "close their eyes" and look away. So sharon had to resign with others generals.
onu then builds up a commission to investigate concerning israelians "mobbing" ways to send arabs away, like destroying their homes, or controlling the flow of water.
when in 1988 things started to get awry for the OLP, they began thinking about the resolution 242 to get away with the problems speech through, they hadn't contemplated it in the beginning because obviously, they thought they would win, so, who cares about peace right?
in 1987 the intifada, (and later Hamas) were born to fight the israelian occupation in the territories.
in 1995 after trying to get peace through diplomatic means, (with clinton to mediate it) and giving the gaza line back, opening an airport, freeing palestinian's political prisoners. they even FAKED THE ELECTIONS! to elect a more "arafat-loveable" president, in order to avoid attacks and violences.
did they get peace?
no, they got suicide bombers.
against civilians. israelian civilians.
and the gaza line? it's no longer israelians. it's given to the palestinian front...but it's under the security of an european police force, who takes orders from an ITALIAN General of the Arma dei Carabinieri (or the army).
history lesson is finished, from here on, it's personal comment:

israelians were "landed" there. they stayed there. the world decided democratically they could stay there.
They were attacked.
they defended themselves with no more fierceness than anyone else would have used. and they are doing no less than what every other country would do to protect IT'S OWN PEOPLE.
the arabs got what they deserved for attacking a country which democratically decided to stay there. and the arabs cannot go against it, because they voted "no" they could have said "we do not vote, because we do not believe in this system" like china, or similar who kept neutral. they voted no, because, in the event of "no" winning, they could have thrown them out. But "yes" won, and so they cannot go and say "israel does not exist".
that's what a sore loser does.
oh yes, the up above history facts, i grabbed them from wikipedia which is, obviously, not a COMPLETELY reliable source, by the CHANCE anyone comes up with a BETTER history lesson (which must however be completely un-biased, so, no arab/jewish writer) he can put it up as a counter-history. history is written by those who win after all, i just hope that when and if israel loses it's patience once more, i won't be near the battlefields. because i doubt they would leave civilians alive, you know, to avoid them forming terrorist factions.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2011, 10:41:59 am by shadenight123 »
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Strife26

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Re: Turkey and Israel
« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2011, 08:46:33 am »

That was only about a fourth of the way coherent, Shade. There's a perfectly fine argument to be made that Israel acts in needed self defense, but claiming that it was democratically established isn't all that useful when it wasn't the displaced peoples voting (straw poll, can I get five votes amongst forum goers that I'm allowed to add the area that used to be the next private's to my own small domain?)
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shadenight123

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Re: Turkey and Israel
« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2011, 09:11:30 am »

sorry, for democratic, i intended "through voting". :/
they could have simply said "we place them here, shut up".
they did let them vote, didn't they? so it's democratic. had the "no" won, israel might have ended elsewhere, no?
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