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[Duuvian]

Newest Threat

I think the solution is to sail some US navy ships to escort Turkey's fleet to it's destination while the Turks allow an inspection of the ships by a joint Israeli and American team, and probably should allow free ranging observers from both countries on the ships from port to port as Turkey's sign of goodwill. Israel might just have to give the US this one.

[sluissa]

Why exactly are you trying to get the US into this? Not that it's not likely, or unprecedented, but really. Why? Why the US? Why get involved at all in this specific case?

I'm all for solving the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict... just tell me how. Escorting aid ships to Palestine isn't going to do a damn thing to end the conflict as long as the Israelis are still up to their dirty deeds. Not that the Palestinians are innocent in this either, they have their own deeds which are less than sparkling, but really, this needs to be solved, once and for all rather than to simply perpetuate the situation with "aid".

To quote Dr. Horrible: "It's a symptom. You're treating a symptom, and the disease rages on..."

I'll skip the part about the fish, since I wouldn't want to be accused of suggesting anything more dire than I intend, but it probably also applies as well.

[Criptfeind]

Why exactly are you trying to get the US into this? Not that it's not likely, or unprecedented, but really. Why? Why the US? Why get involved at all in this specific case?

Because: One, the US is the worlds police man for some odd reason. Two, everyone needs a scape goat if things go horribly wrong.

[Grimshot]

 The U.S. has its own problems to worry about, screw'em.

[mainiac]

I hadn't heard about this, but it looks to me that navy-wise, Turkey has the stronger hand in this.  Hopefully this will force Israel to ease up on some of the downright oppressive conditions of the blockade.  Hard to see how this plays out diplomatically, but I don't really imagine that either party would get western backing on this issue.  Instead just the usual calls for negotiation.  I do hope there is negotiation, because Palestine needs those humanitarian supplies and Israel isn't doing itself any favors here.

Edit: Looking into this I'm kinda surprised at how weak Israels naval deterrent is.  The only real teeth their navy has are the 3 dolphin class subs and they would need to reserve at least one if not all three of those because of their nuke deterrent doctrine.  They have a very strong air force built around multirole attack planes (mostly F-16s) but they don't appear to have any dedicated bombers that would carry heavy anti-ship munitions.  They could put harpoons on a few squadrons of F-16s, but they only carry 2 a piece and Turkey has a substantial air force of it's own, so any credible threat would need a very, very substantial commitment.

[Flying Dice]

Good on Turkey. Nice to see someone finally called Israel on attacking humanitarian aid vessels and murdering foreign nationals. Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with Israel, there are so many ways they could handle being surrounded by hostile nations that wouldn't alienate them from the rest of the world, and what do they do? The whole persecution complex wears a bit thin after so many decades of them being the aggressors in the Middle East. I know the U.S. isn't exactly a shining example of decency and not-commiting-war-crimes or engaging in resource/territory wars, but you would think that their younger generations would have gotten sick of the xenophobes who apparently have a stranglehold on their government.

(Not to say that Israel is the only nation at fault here, e.g. look at what Lebanon did with the Palestinian refugees they took in, but they seem to go the furthest out of the way to look like complete bastards. I won't comment on the historical irony of what they're doing to the Palestinians.)

[mainiac]

I know the U.S. isn't exactly a shining example of decency and not-commiting-war-crimes or engaging in resource/territory wars, but you would think that their younger generations would have gotten sick of the xenophobes who apparently have a stranglehold on their government.

People just don't have the time to follow every news story and there are a lot of news stories related to the US.  I'm willing to bet that you don't know what an insurance death spiral is or how it affects the Affordable Care Act but that's a pretty damn important issue.  Is that because you are evil and misinformed?  No, that's because most people don't follow every news story.

[Flying Dice]

I know the U.S. isn't exactly a shining example of decency and not-commiting-war-crimes or engaging in resource/territory wars, but you would think that their younger generations would have gotten sick of the xenophobes who apparently have a stranglehold on their government.

People just don't have the time to follow every news story and there are a lot of news stories related to the US.  I'm willing to bet that you don't know what an insurance death spiral is or how it affects the Affordable Care Act but that's a pretty damn important issue.  Is that because you are evil and misinformed?  No, that's because most people don't follow every news story.

So don't attribute to maliciousness what can be explained by ignorance? Well, yeah. It certainly is easier to criticize from outside than it is to recognize and work against things from within a system, but I wouldn't place working to limit the greed of insurance companies with working to vote out government officials that willingly commit war crimes to stay in power on the same level. One is a largely internal problem that can (and is, to a certain degree) being addressed by citizens pressuring the government, the other is an issue that is directly responsible for the death and displacement of thousands and millions. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I hesitate to equate corporate neglect and greed with state-sponsored murder.

[Leafsnail]

Well killing six people from another country is obviously gonna cause a diplomatic incident.  Especially if you refuse to apologise.

[Africa]

Keep in mind, back when the first flotilla sailed, Turkey and Israel were still allies and the best of friends. Turkish authorities inspected those ships, and Israel still insisted on boarding them. They could have just let them reach Gaza, to be honest, and no harm would have been done but then the rightist government would have looked weak to their constituents. Since their entire platform rests on xenophobia and acting tough on Muslims, that wouldn't do.

The US should stay the hell out of it. Part of the reason why the entire world is going to recognize Palestine this month is that they can see that the Israeli government's insistence on having more and more settlements and preventing a reasonable peace deal from ever being reached is the primary problem in the peace process. If Obama had some nuts, he'd tell Netanyahu he's stuck fighting his own battles on all fronts (whether it's Turkey, the iffy relations with Egypt, and the demographic doom he's clinging to in the West Bank) until he starts behaving like an adult. Hell, it worked for Bush 1, of all presidents.

In any case, this kind of dicking around between Turkey and Israel will continue because politicians in both countries find it really easy to capitalize on the popularity they can gain in their own electorate by acting tough toward each other. Especially from Israel, where growing levels of fear and hysteria are going to be employed as the Palestinian statehood bid gets closer.

[Virex]

It's not just Israel though, Erdogan needs to raise a fuzz every now and then to avoid people catching on to his religious agenda. Though his agenda is mild by Middle-Eastern standards, pushing a religious agenda in Turkey is like pushing a pro-Chechnya agenda in Russia (though the Turkish military tends to be more fond of bloodless coups than sudden disappearances)

[olemars]

There've also been plenty of large protests inside Israel lately, against high living costs and lack of jobs. These seem to have been largely ignored by international media.

[LordSlowpoke]

It's not just Israel though, Erdogan needs to raise a fuzz every now and then to avoid people catching on to his religious agenda. Though his agenda is mild by Middle-Eastern standards, pushing a religious agenda in Turkey is like pushing a pro-Chechnya agenda in Russia (though the Turkish military tends to be more fond of bloodless coups than sudden disappearances)

Now, I may not be an expert here, but Erdogan has effectively removed most of the officers who could start the coup and forced the rest to resign just so the only thing honestly stabilizing Turkey when things go down is out of the way. Nothing's stopping him now, especially after he got elected the third time in a row with no signs of his popularity wavering...

[Virex]

Wasn't there something about an allegedly prevented coup in Turkey some months ago? I seem to recall the Turkish authorities sending out a message that they tracked down the leaders of a paramilitary group that was doing something naughty. There may be more going on than we can see from over here, especially with the Kurds stirring up trouble (which could be another reason for distraction in itself. Who cares about Kurds disappearing when Turkey and Israel are having a row?)

[Heliman]

Israel is at it again? at this rate it's going to get Poland'd.