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[NUKE9.13]

Gurgh. I'd like a replace, a sI have one more mafia going on at once than I can handle, and I missed mos tof the day...

Extend

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

Do you have something against answering questions clearly?

Seems like you're more interested in talking around people than actually answering questions.

I... what?

I'm sorry if you feel I haven't answered your questions clearly. I assure you this was not intentional. However, I cannot see where I have not been clear, so if you could point me to an example of this perceived inclarity, that would be great.

Right. So your reply had absolutely nothing to do with what you would do if you were the Cult Leader. Something about competence or something.

You seem to be saying that you're drawing suspicion towards yourself because...? But nevertheless this is something you're doing knowingly and intentionally so we should just ignore it. And also because you've done this in previous games and were mislynched for it, and everybody should remember it.

That's a hard argument to swallow.

Once again, I... what?
I am having a hard time deciphering what you are saying here, so forgive me if I don't answer whatever question you are trying to ask.

Native suggested that as scum I would shift attention away, thus that my shifting attention away was an indication of my scuminess. I tried to show that I was not shifting attention away. I was not attempting to bring suspicion upon myself, nor excessive amounts of attention, but I was certainly not trying to avoid it altogether. No mention was made of previous mislynches.

Your difficulty in swallowing appears to stem from the non-existence of the argument.

Because, whilst reading it, I thought to myself: ugh, this is stupid, why are they filling space with this? When I reread D1, I don't want to have to reread stupid discussions like that.

Then why don't you just skip it on your readthroughs if it turns out to be as stupid as you think it is? Why do you have to get it to stop now?

Why is this worthy of discussion.
I can skip them, but I find that rereading is more fruitful if every post is at least glanced over in chronological order. I would rather it stop now because skipping decreases readability.

[NativeForeigner]

Extend

Max: I'm not asking you to predict the future, I'm asking you come up with a hypothetical. Something you apparently can't comprehend. Here's a question you might be able to answer: Why is it that ever since I started questioning you that you've done nothing more than answer questions with a single line and gently poke Toaster once or twice with a follow up question?

I'm still waiting for replies from Toaster. I don't really think questioning everybody constantly will achieve as much as doing some real work, especially when we have been in this argument for a few hours.

Anyway, how about you humour me, why don't you answer the question? How would you suddenly change your suspicions because you were culted and it turns out you were right about your target? So that I may understand what the hell you mean.

So you can't ask other people questions while you're waiting on someone else?

If I had to change my suspicions because we couldn't afford a bus, and barring anything overly convenient happening, I would do so gradually. I would pick my argument back up from where it left off the night before. Only this time, we would have the scumchat to figure out what to say to actually give me a reason to drop my case. For example, we would discuss the questions I should ask and how they should respond to them to appear less scummy. After that, I would simply make the switch to the next person on my list.

Nuke: I don't have time to pick through your post right now and requote, so I'll just reply in order.

What is interesting is the way you reacted. You did get touchy, or at least that's what it seemed like. The first thing you did was throw out some WIFOM, you were pushed near instantly to swearing and assumed I was questioning your competence, and you told us all what you would do if you were really trying to keep suspicion away from yourself. Something that I don't think any of us asked for and none of us care about. Oh, and I missed this the first time, but why is it you assumed I was saying you were trying to avoiding suspicion entirely? I never said that and it's silly that you would bring it up. So no, it's not meant to scare you and it's not meant to make it seem like I know more than I really do, it really was interesting.

It's never a good strategy to lurk (though, this may be biased. I generally hate people who win by lurking). Active lurkers are the worst and tend to get called out quickly. Also, there's almost always someone who plays a portion of the game gunning for lurkers. You bringing this up seems kind of like you were subtly trying to redirect attention to Powder, who's been lurking. But that might a bit of a stretch on my part.

And that means I should ignore you for bringing negative attention to yourself? That's totally how it works.

I probably should have defined "second part", sorry. This part: "I may be counting on said suspicion being neglected on account of previous history of mislynches".

[Think0028]

Day Extended to Tuesday, 6:00 PM you know the drill.
Vote Count:
NUKE9.13 [2]: Jim Groovester, NativeForeigner
Powder Miner [1]: NUKE9.13
Max White [2]: Powder Miner, Dariush
Urist_McArathos [1]: Toaster
Not Voting: Urist_McArathos, Max White, Jack A T

Remember, if you have any questions, ask me directly with my name or Mod in bold.

[Jim Groovester]

Okay, let's get this all cleared up.

The relevant quote is here for convenience:

Sorry.
I'ma call this a bandwagon.
Anyway, if it isn't, a response: Seriously, guy, how fucking incompetent do you think I am? If I wanted to keep suspicion away from myself, I wouldn't be making a big fuss about not participating in the RVS, now would I? I may be counting on said suspicion being neglected on account of previous history of mislynches, but I certainly ain't attempting to avoid it completely, and suggesting that I am is ridiculous.

Native suggested that as scum I would shift attention away, thus that my shifting attention away was an indication of my scuminess. I tried to show that I was not shifting attention away. I was not attempting to bring suspicion upon myself, nor excessive amounts of attention, but I was certainly not trying to avoid it altogether.

The accusation was essentially a Refuge in Audacity argument, not that you were trying to avoid attention directly or anything like that. That you are being a very, very ballsy Cult Leader by jokingly admitting that you were the Cult Leader to everybody in the game. What's your answer to that?

No mention was made of previous mislynches.

Not true.

Explain what you meant by: "I may be counting on said suspicion being neglected on account of previous history of mislynches,"

Why is this worthy of discussion.
I can skip them, but I find that rereading is more fruitful if every post is at least glanced over in chronological order. I would rather it stop now because skipping decreases readability.

Because I want to talk about it. Not anymore though, because I've gotten an answer.

[Jack A T]

Here goes a "tell me your suspects NOW" cluster on the quiet players/nonvoters!

Dariush: You really haven't done much at all today.  You've answered questions, yes, but you've done nothing really helpful.  Who do you suspect and why?

Urist McArathos: Who do you suspect of being cult leader?  Why?

Max: You got into a long, insult-filled argument with Native, but have never voted for anyone.  Who do you suspect most at the moment?  Why?  What makes Native feel too town to vote for?

Right. So your reply had absolutely nothing to do with what you would do if you were the Cult Leader. Something about competence or something.

You seem to be saying that you're drawing suspicion towards yourself because...? But nevertheless this is something you're doing knowingly and intentionally so we should just ignore it. And also because you've done this in previous games and were mislynched for it, and everybody should remember it.

That's a hard argument to swallow.

Once again, I... what?
I am having a hard time deciphering what you are saying here, so forgive me if I don't answer whatever question you are trying to ask.

Native suggested that as scum I would shift attention away, thus that my shifting attention away was an indication of my scuminess. I tried to show that I was not shifting attention away. I was not attempting to bring suspicion upon myself, nor excessive amounts of attention, but I was certainly not trying to avoid it altogether. No mention was made of previous mislynches.

Your difficulty in swallowing appears to stem from the non-existence of the argument.

Okay, I think I understand what's going on here.  Let's see...Native mentioned that NUKE was possibly trying to deflect suspicion by joking about being the cult leader, so NUKE's defense was to say that any strategy of his that involved avoiding suspicion would clearly involve not talking about his hatred of RVS.  That was WIFOMy: "If I really was trying to avoid suspicion, I wouldn't rant about my hatred of RVS!  As I ranted about my hatred of RVS, I am clearly not trying to avoid suspicion!  You can trust me there!"

Then Jim attacked NUKE for WIFOM.  NUKE's defense here is where the word "attention" started to pop up in place of "suspicion".  This is important, as the two words have different meanings: attention is significantly broader, and generally less harmful than suspicion.  In addition, NUKE mentions that he never said anything about his actions as scum in his reply, and that it therefore had nothing to do with what NUKE would do as scum.  Even though it was a response to Native accusing NUKE of being scum trying to avoid suspicion, and NUKE's response was basically "I wouldn't do what I've done in this game if that was my plan!"  The more I think about this, the worse it looks.

Then Jim starts to confuse attention and suspicion too.  And NUKE then outright lies.

No mention was made of previous mislynches.

I may be counting on said suspicion being neglected on account of previous history of mislynches

NUKE9.13, congrats.

PPE: And, like almost every other long post in which I take a break to pace halfway through, someone ninjas me. 

[Toaster]

Urist:  In your last post, you start out with "First, answering questions..." but you never really get beyond that.  Who are the two most suspicious people to you at the moment?


Nuke:  You've defended yourself a lot, but you have yet to attack anyone.  Don't tell me you were attacking Powder, because we all know that vote was to provoke discussion.

So, ignoring your own defense for a moment, who do you suspect?


Native:  Do you think Max is genuinely scummy for his obstinacy regarding your question or is he just being unhelpful?

[NativeForeigner]

Native:  Do you think Max is genuinely scummy for his obstinacy regarding your question or is he just being unhelpful?

I think he's just being unhelpful, it's not out of character for him. This was covered shortly after I changed my vote from Powder to Nuke here.

[Urist_McArathos]

Firstly, Extend.  If we're going to be replacing someone, I want time to read them.

Toaster/Jack

I think I can kill two birds with one stone here.

I've not been active during the day because I work 14+ hours a day most days; it's why most of my posts are inordinately long walls of text.  I'm trying to cram an entire day's worth of interactions into a single post.  Just an FYI on that.

As for my lack of suspicions, I don't feel this has been the most active D1, so it's been harder for me to formulate much of a case in my head, and since we're clearly out of RVS I refuse to vote unless I've got a decent suspicion.

Having said that, my suspects...

Dariush at the moment tops my list because he hasn't been very active, and when he has been active seems more interested in quietly slipping under the radar of the other players.  I also feel that his missing some rather obvious details from the game summary is a red flag; he doesn't seem all that concerned with the nature of the game or its roles.  I feel that he is the cult leader because this lack of attention to the game details and quiet watching is the behavior of a cult leader who 1) doesn't care about the rules as they impact Town, since he is scum, and 2) is more interested in scoping conversion targets than anything else.

Admittedly, this is a weak case (for now), but putting him under FoS would be a waste of time, and he's my highest suspect at the moment.

Max and Native are in a tie for now; I know at least one of them is town, but they're both getting awfully personal with their attacks, and seem somewhat narrowly focused.  I'm not sure if one of them is scum trying to provoke the other into cracking, or if they're both town and just hashing out some latent hostility here.  I feel they both bear watching closely for this reason.

I was suspicious of Powder Miner, but now that he's asking for a replacement I'm inclined to believe that his absence and lurky behavior was a result of this game not getting enough attention rather than a deliberate attempt to hide from scrutiny.

So, on to questions of my own!

Dariush:  WHY weren't you paying more attention to the summary?  Why aren't you saying and doing more in this game?  I know you were around earlier today, because you had to end the day in the BM and write the summaries of the night actions.  You were free enough to post for a period of several hours, but couldn't be arsed to check in here?

Max and Native:  You two argued for quite some time, and it got a little heated.  Neither of you voted for the other, I noticed, that entire time.  My questions to each of you, individually, are: What did you get out of that whole ordeal?  If you didn't see (the other person) as scummy enough to vote for, why did you spend so much time attacking them to the exclusion of investigating anyone else?  Why was another person worthy of your vote instead of the person you were having a pissing contest with?

Max, in particular: You don't seem to be keeping the argument going now, but unlike Native you haven't moved on either.  I can accept that maybe you haven't been around to, but in either case: if your argument is done, what do you intend to do know?  Are you going to investigate someone else?  And now that Native has given you an example of what he wants, are you going to finally answer his hypothetical question or find another reason to dodge the issue?

NUKE: So, I want an answer from you.  You dismiss out of hand the idea that my question about your town meta has any merit as a topic of discussion.  How is it not hypocritical to laugh off the suggestion we discuss your town meta and its impact on this game, then turn right around and POINT IT OUT YOURSELF in the same goddamned post!?

Ahahaha. Wait, you're serious? May I remind you that the question was about meta. Town meta. That shit ain't 'discussion worthy'.

Then, later in that same post (bold is mine, for emphasis)

Seriously, guy, how fucking incompetent do you think I am? If I wanted to keep suspicion away from myself, I wouldn't be making a big fuss about not participating in the RVS, now would I? I may be counting on said suspicion being neglected on account of previous history of mislynches, but I certainly ain't attempting to avoid it completely, and suggesting that I am is ridiculous.

"My town meta is not important enough to discuss because it has no bearing on this game, and now I acknowledge it may indeed be a factor in this game".

Seriously NUKE, inconsistent shit like this is what keeps getting you lynched.  It's hard enough to tell Town from Scum, and I'm not going to give you a free pass just because you do this all the time.  You act scummy, you're going to hang.

Or are you going to try and feed me some BS about how, like overdefending or pre-emptive defenses, contradicting yourself isn't a scumtell either?

[Urist_McArathos]

EBWODP:  I retract my Extend request, I missed the part about the day already being extended.  I'm used to it being listed AFTER the votes, so when I read the vote count and saw nothing more, I mistakenly assumed we were short a vote for extension.

[NativeForeigner]

Urist: I only thing I managed to get out of the ordeal is the idea that Max is either covering poorly for if he gets turned or that he hasn't changed since the last time we played together. I spent time on Max despite not voting for him because I really don't like my questions being dodged. He was also the only one on at the time, if you'll notice, I turned attention to Nuke once he made a post, rather than focusing solely on Max. Nuke was more worthy of a vote than Max because I really don't think Max is scum, just bad town. I think this because we have history together. He killed himself and then vengekilled me for fitting into my town meta.

[Dariush]

Sorry for being inactive, got a hellish day at school.

Dariush:  WHY weren't you paying more attention to the summary?

Uh. It's after questions like this that something tips in my mind that the asker doesn't really care about my answer and simply tacks random arguments to make an impression of a case. I don't know why I missed the note about a guaranteed jailer. Are you going to go ahead and call me scum because of it?

Why aren't you saying and doing more in this game?  I know you were around earlier today, because you had to end the day in the BM and write the summaries of the night actions.  You were free enough to post for a period of several hours, but couldn't be arsed to check in here?

As much as I hate discussing ongoing games, do you really think that sending several messages and copying flavor from a prewritten log takes more effort than reading through a thread, carefully analyzing everyone's arguments?

Toaster, care to explain why did you ask Powder not who does he think is the cult leader, but who is? Do you know something we don't or do you think we are still in RVS?

Native,

Nuke was more worthy of a vote than Max because I really don't think Max is scum, just bad town. I think this because we have history together. He killed himself and then vengekilled me for fitting into my town meta.

So, you changed your vote because of Max's meta. Have you played with Nuke before? Do you know what an ass he likes to make of himself overall and especially in RVS? If yes, did that knowledge influence your vote?

Urist, your question about me reading OP seems very suspicious. Why did you vote me only after being prompted to by Toaster?

Jim, all of your posts lately only concern Nuke. Do you have any other suspicions beside him?

And finally... Nuke.

Has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

Do you have something against answering questions clearly?

Seems like you're more interested in talking around people than actually answering questions.

blablaI cannot see where I have not been clearblabla

What the fuck. Your answer doesn't even constitute a proper sentence, let alone make sense. And after that you wonder where you haven't been clear. What the fuck.

Powder Miner, you refuse to play along with the RVS shenanigans. This is because your are the cult leader, attempting to avoid attention.

During a reread, this stood out to me.  NUKE9.13, this seems strangely hasty: you're convinced that Powder Miner is the cult leader because of one post near the start of RVS where he didn't ask any questions.  You can argue that it could be scummy, but I find it to be extremely unconvincing evidence of being the cult leader.  You don't bother asking him a question, either, instead just leaving a weak accusation that can be shrugged off with a short counterargument.

Hang on, what's the opposite of that?
A question can be shrugged of with a quick answer. A flat accusation requires the suspect to supply their own response from whole cloth; I have done none of their work for them. This makes them reveal more of themselves than an answer to a question.

Do you even realize that in whole four sentences of your reply you didn't even get near explaining what the fuck you were doing?

You play your way, I'll play mine. I believe that there is information to be gleaned from what people feel willing to volunteer, and how they react to seemingly ridiculous accusations. And I know that they work, because I have used this strategy before.
Please refrain from A)Telling me how to play and B)Voting for me... for not playing the right way? Honestly, I can't understand what I have done that is actually scummy.

And even in your response to Jack's response you STILL don't give any explanation and instead admit that your accusation is ridiculous. What you're doing is not 'playing your way', what you're doing is being scum.

Sorry about being lurky today- My carpet was wet so I coudln;t be in my room for most of the dya, and I'm struggling up a hill of homework.

Ok.
Do you realise why we all need to be extra active today especially?

Aaaand just as a cherry on top of the cake, you demand that people put mafia in from of RL. Pray tell me, did you actually expect any answer to this question? What was it's purpose, if any?

[NativeForeigner]

Dariush: My vote was never on Max, and my vote on Nuke has more to do than town meta. While Max's meta might be generally unhelpful, it's not entirely scummy behavior on it's own. I was aware that Nuke was apparently fitting into his meta (only from Jack's statement, I didn't read any of his past games), but if his meta involves outright lying, his failure to actually attack anyone, and the way he reacted when I called him out, then I won't be exactly heartbroken if it turns out I'm wrong.

[Urist_McArathos]

Dariush

I was only going to FoS you, but I'd been told by an IC in a BM game that if it's outside RVS and all you have is one weak suspect, a FoS may as well be a vote.  I don't have much to go on with anyone at this point, which is why I made it clear that my case on you is very weak at the moment. 

Sorry for being inactive, got a hellish day at school.

That explains a lot.

Uh. It's after questions like this that something tips in my mind that the asker doesn't really care about my answer and simply tacks random arguments to make an impression of a case. I don't know why I missed the note about a guaranteed jailer. Are you going to go ahead and call me scum because of it?

No, I'm not.  I wanted an answer, you've given one promptly, and were straightforward about it.

As much as I hate discussing ongoing games, do you really think that sending several messages and copying flavor from a prewritten log takes more effort than reading through a thread, carefully analyzing everyone's arguments?

I hadn't considered the possibility you had the flavor written out in advance; I've not run a game before.  No, I can see where that would take less time and effort than making a case.


...well, shit.  Unvote, vote NUKE.  I don't have anything else to go on with Dariush until he interacts more, and nobody else is acting as scummy as you, NUKE.

I'm still wondering if you're really town, but here's the deal: if it's this hard to tell if you're scum or not, I'd rather you get mislynched now than still have you around at LYLO, clouding our ability to figure out who actually IS scum.  Plus, I mentioned in my last post a couple things I really found unsettling about you which you'll need to address before I can consider unvoting you altogether.

[Toaster]

Urist:  Fair enough.  Unvote for now.

Why didn't you respond to Dariush's question I have quoted below?


Dariush:  Part RVS, part reaction test.  Completely pointless since he asked for a replacement.

Yes, we were still RVSing at the time I posted that post.  Is that a problem?

Urist, your question about me reading OP seems very suspicious. Why did you vote me only after being prompted to by Toaster?

How is it suspicious?  It's a valid question- you're asking questions that are plainly answered in the rules.   Also, how did I prompt him to vote you?  I wanted him to do some scumhunting.

[Dariush]

Urist. Your careful getting out of your vote against me and agreeing that yes, all those are indeed valid reasons, and casual remarks about me prewriting flavor and just general way you respond to every one of my answers only to bandwagon Nuke without any arguments just completely convinced me that you're scum.

How is it suspicious?  It's a valid question- you're asking questions that are plainly answered in the rules.

His question was a really, really weak addition to his case - one that is better left unsaid, even if he considers it valid.

Also, how did I prompt him to vote you?  I wanted him to do some scumhunting.

You asked him what were his suspects and he voted me while answering. That's what I mean by prompting.