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[NativeForeigner]

These days only end on a hammer. Are you saying that you would rather risk hammering someone that you're not sure is scum and could lose the game than take the time to convince them to stop being an idiot and vote a more likely target?

If that's an option, they don't fulfill the criteria. I never said I'd hammer someone for being plain stupid.

But you did say that you thought it would be a good idea to lynch a gibbering imbecile, even if you can't tell they're scum and they're not necessarily your first pick. Why would you go for that lynch instead of your first pick?

PPE: Why would you lynch them even in a situation where they control 1/4 or 1/3 of the votes if you think someone else is more likely to be scum?

Urist: So you're saying that you would rather lynch a skilled player so they can have the vengekill rather than push the lynch of someone you actually think is scum? Even in the case of having a bad player, a strong town player is worth more alive than dead, even if they hit scum, you still have to deal with the bad player the next day AND you're down a strong player.

Jim: You say you want more than a spotty gut feeling, but I don't see you doing much to get any more out of anybody. What's up with that?

[IronyOwl]

But you did say that you thought it would be a good idea to lynch a gibbering imbecile, even if you can't tell they're scum and they're not necessarily your first pick. Why would you go for that lynch instead of your first pick?

Because my first pick isn't viable. Hence the "in the way" bit.

PPE: Why would you lynch them even in a situation where they control 1/4 or 1/3 of the votes if you think someone else is more likely to be scum?

Same reason.

[Jim Groovester]

So I've been horribly lazy about this game.

Will post more later.

[Jim Groovester]

And then why did you wait to vote?

Holy shit, I didn't realize it'd been more than a week.

Whoops.

Down to business.

Jim: You say you want more than a spotty gut feeling, but I don't see you doing much to get any more out of anybody. What's up with that?

The reason is that in between being busy there have been more pressing mafia games and deadlines to work through, and I lost track of this game in the intervening week and a half I didn't post. Motherfucker a week and a half.

Also, everybody's posts seem reasonable enough. In other words, it's going to require more subtle examination than I've been willing to put into the game recently, because nothing jumps out and screams that any particular player is scum. Everyone seems to be playing strong games, aside from the low participation, which has been affecting all of us.

The current argument about IronyOwl wanting to lynch a gibbering imbecile doesn't strike me as something indicative of him being scum, and that's literally the only thing that's been going on.

Explain how this is circular reasoning.  My point is: you asked how I know calling me scum was infeasible for you.  My argument: you were debating whether or not to vote Shark or me.  You chose Shark because you could not vote for me (either because it was tactically unsound, or because saying I was your primary suspect at that point would have been a lie; either way you couldn't do it), and if I was a feasible voting target you would have voted me instead (since that would have made sense to do).  I drew the conclusion that you did not vote for me, because I wasn't a feasible target.  The alternative is that you could have called me scum and voted me, and deliberately didn't in spite of your beliefs.

I don't follow. What are you accusing him of here?

It looks like you're accusing him of not voting you. Which makes him scum because...?

NativeForeigner, IronyOwl, votes? Suspects? I'll note it's impossible for the both of you to cast votes and end the day, unless one of you decides to hammer yourselves.

[IronyOwl]

Reread complete. I'm thinking Native is the godfather.


Urist has seemed more flaily than scummy, and his Sharkvote seemed less sudden than I'd remembered. In particular, this current nonsense he's got on me seems genuinely bad more than a scummy excuse.

Jim is pretty unreadable, but I have a hard time picturing him as Shark's buddy, given their interactions and Shark's behavior. Perhaps it's WIFOMy to think so, but I'd really figure if Jim was focusing on Shark that much, he'd also be telling him how to act in scumchat. Which I guess could have been "You're dead, I'm bussing you now," but I sort of doubt Shark would completely ignore Jim's advice, or that his advice would just be to stay the course.


Native, on the other hand, had no interactions or opinions on Shark whatsoever, nor has he been very vocal about anything else. He also said he didn't have anything on me at the end of D1, but has brought up basically the same argument as a reason for suspecting me today.

[NativeForeigner]

My suspects haven't really changed, it's still between Urist and IronyOwl. I don't really think Jim is scum because I have a feeling that he'd be more on top of the game if he was.

Irony: I'm pretty sure I've already pointed out where I've interaction with Shark and shared opinions on him. Sure, I never got into any big debates with him or any, like Jim pointed out, but there was some interaction.

As for me not having anything on you, I decided to bring the argument back up after looking back on the post where Jim mentioned that you're good at talking your way out of high-pressure situations, so I felt it would be best to bring those suspicions back into play.

I'm taking another look at things and I'll probably be back with a vote later today or early tomorrow.

[NativeForeigner]

Postponing that to tomorrow night. Plans came up.

[NativeForeigner]

Looking back, Jim is actually a suspect now, and Urist isn't so much.

I know I just said that I didn't think he was scum because of his lack of involvement, but after thinking about it for a bit, I came to the conclusion that it was possible that Jim was simply playing a little more on the side of caution, having never been in this game type before, so I decided to do a reread focusing on Jim.

In this post, Shark had just asked Jim how the lack of a night phase would affect his plans. It could be seen as a slip by Shark, indicating that he knew Jim was scum and therefore had plans. It's interesting, but I didn't put a lot of weight on it alone, seeing as it was and interaction from Shark, not something Jim did.

Then, here Jim uses "It would make me look town. But that's not my primary concern." as part of an excuse for why he wasn't asking questions or (noticeably) hunting. Urist hit on this briefly, even if it was supposedly a joke, but Jim scared him quickly.

The next noticeable thing to happen is when Shark buddied Jim, which Jim was quick to point out and distance himself. The way Jim handled that hammer, though, has me still wondering. At parts it seems like Jim is trying to find a reason to hammer Irony over Shark, but finds it more beneficial to bus Shark instead, but I can't seem to find enough evidence that supports this.

I'm aware that I said I would have a vote, but I didn't find as much or get as much done as I would have liked to warrant one just yet.

Jim: You haven't said anything since Irony voted me. Do you still feel your spotty gut feeling is enough to put me at risk for a hammer or do you have an actual reason now?

Time to reread focusing on Irony. Probably will have something more tomorrow.

[Jim Groovester]

Jim is pretty unreadable, but I have a hard time picturing him as Shark's buddy, given their interactions and Shark's behavior. Perhaps it's WIFOMy to think so, but I'd really figure if Jim was focusing on Shark that much, he'd also be telling him how to act in scumchat. Which I guess could have been "You're dead, I'm bussing you now," but I sort of doubt Shark would completely ignore Jim's advice, or that his advice would just be to stay the course.

I don't much like WIFOM as a reason to think I'm town, especially when you've decided to agree with me about my vote.

I smell a whiff of buddying.

Jim: You haven't said anything since Irony voted me. Do you still feel your spotty gut feeling is enough to put me at risk for a hammer or do you have an actual reason now?

You bet my gut feelings are enough to put you at risk for a hammer. Did you forget that we have a mislynch to spare? I wouldn't expect that you would considering that you brought up when you were congratulating everybody about getting to Day 2 by lynch instead of vengekill.

As for my reasons, not much has changed in the aeons this day has gone on. If you'd like, I can call my spotty gut feeling a weak case and state it more concretely.

I.E., Shark tried his best to ignore you as much as possible during Day 1, and since he flipped scum and noob it's a strong indicator that you're his buddy, as scum, and especially new scum, prefer to ignore their partners lest they incriminate themselves through forced and unnatural looking interactions as I oft repeat in Beginner's Mafias. Further, I feel that you're implementing skillful scum tactics, like trying to see how the day would go before making a move, and congratulating the town for a job well done, and generally trying to stay on top and above everybody else in terms of towniness by doing things like prodding everyone frequently and so on (needs no supporting links since you've done it a ton). However, the points about skillful scum tactics are dubious at best, but they overall contribute to my feeling that you're Shark's partner.

Better?

Looking back, Jim is actually a suspect now, and Urist isn't so much.

Why not Urist so much anymore?

Also, if you want to ride people's ass about not saying anything you might try him for once.

[NativeForeigner]

Jim: You haven't said anything since Irony voted me. Do you still feel your spotty gut feeling is enough to put me at risk for a hammer or do you have an actual reason now?

You bet my gut feelings are enough to put you at risk for a hammer. Did you forget that we have a mislynch to spare? I wouldn't expect that you would considering that you brought up when you were congratulating everybody about getting to Day 2 by lynch instead of vengekill.

I didn't forget, I was just curious if you felt that, even with a mislynch to spare, it was a good enough reason for you. Also, I'm guessing that by saying I was "congratulating" everyone that you're referring to the post where I pointed out that this was a first in my experience. Not so much a congratulations as a "Huh, this hasn't happened before", but I guess you could take it as one...

Better?

Better than just a spotty gut feeling, yes.

Looking back, Jim is actually a suspect now, and Urist isn't so much.

Why not Urist so much anymore?

Also, if you want to ride people's ass about not saying anything you might try him for once.
[/quote]

Going back through the thread, I mostly just lost any sort of feeling that he might be scum. He had decent interactions with Shark and when he voted he didn't suddenly ignore everything around him. Also, the few things I could call him on feel more like bad play than scum play, like Irony said.

It's not my job to make sure everyone posts. I just prod the people I'm most interested in hearing from.

[Jim Groovester]

Given that we do have a mislynch to spare, how will your suspicions change if either of your two top suspects were lynched today and flipped town?

McArathos, we're almost at two weeks without hearing from you.

[NativeForeigner]

Given that we do have a mislynch to spare, how will your suspicions change if either of your two top suspects were lynched today and flipped town?

I'd reflect on why I thought they were scum, compare that to the other suspect, and, if the reasons are similar, and thus potentially flawed, I'd probably clear the table entirely and build a case on the remaining two players from scrap to try to determine who the godfather is.

[Jim Groovester]

I wanted a more specific answer instead of a general one. As in, who are your two top suspects, and how will you react if either of them gets lynched today and flips town.

[NativeForeigner]

My two top suspects are obviously you and Irony (I still need to get on that reread). If either one of you flipped town, I would compare what made me think they were scum with why I think the other player is scum and take a closer look at any similarities to determine whether or not it's an actual tell or if it's something I should put less weight on or disregard all together. Then I would do some research on both of the remaining players and do my best to figure out which one is scum.

I would open the day by asking everyone (since they would all have had to have a part in the lynch) why they chose the person lynched over their second pick, while offering my own reasons for the same.

[Urist_McArathos]

Given that we do have a mislynch to spare, how will your suspicions change if either of your two top suspects were lynched today and flipped town?

McArathos, we're almost at two weeks without hearing from you.

My most sincere apologies; I was crazy busy with Thanksgiving week at work, and I will admit to having been lazy with this game, seeing as how the lack of a time limit allowed me to be.  I need to completely reread the last few pages to get a proper grip on things, but my faith my vote on Irony is shaken, for now.  Most, if not all of you have said my case seems more like poor play than scum play, so even if Irony is scum that means that the other townies think I'm doing a bad job of proving it.  Time to re-evaluate my case and position.

Unvote for now, just to prevent an (admittedly extremely unlikely) hammer on Irony.