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[Jim Groovester]

So all you were waiting for is for someone to agree with you about Shark, but vote him first?

On a related note, does it bother you that you don't have any solid suspicions this far in? Does it bother you that I have such a confident suspicion this early?

Not confident enough to be the first person to vote him.

No to both questions.

[IronyOwl]

So all you were waiting for is for someone to agree with you about Shark, but vote him first?

No, I was waiting for more data. I think I've got it now.

Not confident enough to be the first person to vote him.

True, though not because of the vote. I actually didn't realize I was ready until I went back and checked over some things, which was mainly prompted by your question.


How confident are you that you'd know if Urist was scum?

[NativeForeigner]

Shark.

Irony

I don't like this.

Earlier you weren't confident enough to even vote Shark and now you're confident enough to set him up for the hammer? This reeks, I can't see any reason other than you were afraid to put yourself out there. The only reason you would have to be afraid is if you're scum. You say you were looking for more data, but I don't buy it. You weren't asking nearly enough questions for me to believe that, you were trying to get everyone else to do most of the hunting for you.

Did you get the approval you were waiting for? Did you only feel safe casting the somewhat secure, second vote, avoiding having to either take charge of the lynch or hammer him and instead putting yourself in a place that would allow you to be more passive? Because that's what it seems like. VM8 aside (for obvious reasons), that's how scum usually plays a vengeful, they wait until someone casts the first vote, and then one jumps on with the second vote. Even better if it's on a weak player.

Tell me, what things did you check over that made you feel "ready"?

Urist: What do you think of Irony's sudden change of heart towards voting Shark? Considering it came immediately after your vote.

Shark: You pestered Irony about not attacking you and he finally did. How confident are you in your vote? Do you think he only attacked you because he started to get pressured?

[Jim Groovester]

No, I was waiting for more data. I think I've got it now.

What data, specifically?

Tell me the whole of your case along with the timeline of it.

You're being vague and I don't like it.

How confident are you that you'd know if Urist was scum?

Pretty sure. It's a meta argument, and they can lose their relevancy fast depending on how much a player improves.

What McArathos does as scum is he oversells his cases. I had the privilege of coaching his scummy ass in Witches Coven 1, and catching (and then coaching) his scummy ass in Cult Mafia. Here and here and here are a few good examples of where I think he tries too hard to justify his cases.

Maybe he has the hang of it this game, maybe he's just town, I don't know. There are few points where I felt like I could call him out on his scum meta just to make him shake in his boots but otherwise I don't really see it. For reference, I'm thinking of this post here, where I really considered scaring him by pointing out similarities to the post in Cult Mafia where he had the head asplode image. Same sort of joking WIFOM.

Irony

Oh, goody. Do I get the hammer? In my first Vengeful Mafia?

Great.

[IronyOwl]

You weren't asking nearly enough questions for me to believe that, you were trying to get everyone else to do most of the hunting for you.

Explain.

Did you get the approval you were waiting for? Did you only feel safe casting the somewhat secure, second vote, avoiding having to either take charge of the lynch or hammer him and instead putting yourself in a place that would allow you to be more passive? Because that's what it seems like. VM8 aside (for obvious reasons), that's how scum usually plays a vengeful, they wait until someone casts the first vote, and then one jumps on with the second vote. Even better if it's on a weak player.

If I was waiting for approval, why was I the first one to state such a concrete suspicion?

For reference, I'm thinking of this post here, where I really considered scaring him by pointing out similarities to the post in Cult Mafia where he had the head asplode image. Same sort of joking WIFOM.

What made you decide not to?

Tell me, what things did you check over that made you feel "ready"?

What data, specifically?

Tell me the whole of your case along with the timeline of it.

You're being vague and I don't like it.

On Shark, I was pretty sure I'd noticed a dead scumslip when he first said it. I didn't want to jump to conclusions, though, because sometimes noobs say stupid things and your brilliant plan fails miserably. I also figured it'd be an awesome opportunity to look for interactions with basically confirmed scum.

I believe this was when I lost any real doubt that he was scum, since, as I pointed out later, he basically admitted to answering a question from a scum perspective without any particular reason or bothering to mention he was doing so. There's really only one reason to do that.

This gave it an ironclad guarantee, however, since it's got pretty much every scumtell he could squeeze in there: OMGUSing, exaggerating things to discredit his attacker, nonsensical arguments (both on attack and defense), and a nice ultimatum to ride on or abandon his vote as he sees fit.


As for the rest:

Jim's got nothing, and hasn't been especially keen on fixing that. What I find most interesting, however, is that he doesn't really find Shark scummy, despite noticing and calling him out on some of his scumtells. Usually when I'm scum with a noob partner, I tend to underestimate their scumminess for whatever reason. Jim's a lot more brutal than I am, but it still looks a lot like that sort of situation, especially since, as I've just said, Jim's usually a lot more brutal than this.

In short, second scumpick.


McArathos is a bit scattered. He was parroting a few times earlier, has seemed nervous at times (the WIFOM joke, "if you mean this it's this, but if you don't I have absolutely never given any indication of supporting or suggesting such a thing"), and seemed a bit too eager to jump onto Shark, so I can't help but suspect a bus. He also (mistakenly) pointed out that I suspected him more than Shark, but didn't seem to have a problem with that, which is a bit odd, but not a lot by itself.

In short, third scumpick.


Native's seemed excessively critical of my scumhunting for dubious reasons. It's not so much that I can't see where he's coming from, it's just that he seems to take any question to anyone else about Shark personally. I'm curious why he's doing that. Despite this, I liked his answers to my thought experiment for some reason, and his scumhunting has seemed the most like actual stuff, so he's leaning town for me.

In short, last scumpick.



McArathos, I guess I'll ask about it after all. When you told Shark you were my top suspect, why didn't that seem to bother you? Did you feel I'd mentioned you enough to warrant suspecting you over Shark?

Oh, goody. Do I get the hammer? In my first Vengeful Mafia?

Great.

I would think you'd be pleased to have control over that. It's no different from LYLO, right?

[Shark]

It's legit, I can't read you at all. I don't know how you're interpreting my answer, but i'm saying that I can't find anything you've done that's scummy or questionable.

McArathos has it right.

It's one thing to say you can't get a read out of me. It's another to say I'm playing perfectly.

Trying to curry a little favor with the big bad Groovester, lest he sink his teeth into you?

I've been trying to avoid WIFOM, but seriously, if we were buddies, all it would do is make both of us look terrible for teaming up. I posted what I posted, don't let it get to your head.

[Jack A T]

Votecount:
*Jim Groovester (0):
*IronyOwl (2): NativeForeigner, Shark
*NativeForeigner (0):
*Urist McArathos (0):
*Shark (2): IronyOwl, Urist McArathos

[Urist_McArathos]

Urist: What do you think of Irony's sudden change of heart towards voting Shark? Considering it came immediately after your vote.

Definitely suspect, but not enough to make me switch my vote.  I honestly expected Irony to come after me for voting Shark, so this turn of events is entirely unprecedented.

My thought was that Irony wasn't sure if I was scum, or possibly Shark, so he was waiting for a better read on me before deciding where to put his vote.  I assumed I just broke town to him with my vote, but the fact that I wasn't his prime suspect makes me reconsider a lot on Irony.

I've been trying to avoid WIFOM, but (WIFOM goes here)

Protip: Putting "I didn't want to do X" right before doing X doesn't negate it.  This is a WIFOM defense against the accusation of buddying, and saying you didn't want to resort to WIFOM doesn't change the fact you did.  It arguably makes it worse, since you can't claim ignorance of the fact.

Also, you didn't answer Native.  Any reason why?

Less likely, perhaps.  Scum players, even bad ones, are always wary of being caught doing something scummy.  Still, I think it's quite likely they'll do it.  It's dangerous, but that doesn't mean any given scum player won't fuck it up when they do.  If a scum player honestly believes they have a slam dunk of a case when they hammer, they may believe they've just ensured they won't be hit by the vengekill.  It doesn't mean they're right, of course.

This seems contradictory. Are scum less likely to hammer, or are they probably going to hammer?

Sorry, missed this one.  Yeah, it's worded bass-ackwards.  Basically, what I was trying to say is that it's LESS LIKELY Scum will hammer, in general, since it's a risky move.  I do think it will happen if the scum players are either not very good at their scum play OR if they feel certain they can do it and not be called out for it.  It's like, under ideal circumstances no Townie would ever claim Doctor Day 1, yet it still happens depending on who's playing.

McArathos, I guess I'll ask about it after all. When you told Shark you were my top suspect, why didn't that seem to bother you? Did you feel I'd mentioned you enough to warrant suspecting you over Shark?

Yes, actually.  Unlike Shark, I took your statements about me quite seriously; accusing me of parroting, pressing me for better answers on some seemingly unimportant questions, and in general I just figured you had your eye on me, but were probing Shark more to get a better read on him (since it's hard to tell how much of his behavior is newb and how much is genuinely scummy).

In fact, that's the whole reason why it made sense to me you weren't voting Shark despite your questions: I figured you were deciding if he was more or less likely to be scum than me.  If that wasn't the case (since I apparently was/am #2-3 depending on which post I cite now), what convinced you to vote him?  I didn't do much beyond expand on my original arguments (which you apparently found so unoriginal you said I was parroting even after I made them).

[IronyOwl]

I honestly expected Irony to come after me for voting Shark, so this turn of events is entirely unprecedented.

Why'd you think that? Was there some part of your case you didn't think I'd find satisfactory?

Yes, actually.  Unlike Shark, I took your statements about me quite seriously; accusing me of parroting, pressing me for better answers on some seemingly unimportant questions, and in general I just figured you had your eye on me, but were probing Shark more to get a better read on him (since it's hard to tell how much of his behavior is newb and how much is genuinely scummy).

I actually don't think I called you out on parroting until after you'd said that.

In any case, are you saying that if I'd declared you scum instead of Shark, you'd have been satisfied enough with the scumhunting I'd done on you to assume I was being reasonable?

If that wasn't the case (since I apparently was/am #2-3 depending on which post I cite now), what convinced you to vote him?  I didn't do much beyond expand on my original arguments (which you apparently found so unoriginal you said I was parroting even after I made them).

I felt that I'd gotten solid enough reads on everyone else, or at least as good as I was probably going to based on Shark interactions. Your Sharkvote post, Jim's scumtell answer, and Native's hypothetical explanation were all very important to that.

[Jim Groovester]

I've been trying to avoid WIFOM, but seriously, if we were buddies, all it would do is make both of us look terrible for teaming up. I posted what I posted, don't let it get to your head.

Man, it's like you're addicted to not answering questions.

You don't seem to understand what makes a buddying accusation a buddying accusation. When a player buddies, they cozy up to a player (usually powerful town) by flattery, agreeing with him, and other friendly moves so that that player will avoid looking at the buddying player too severely. Why perfectly? And saying that you just posted what you posted is not an answer.

Thanks for the WIFOM too. What, straight answers not working out very well for you?

If I was waiting for approval, why was I the first one to state such a concrete suspicion?

Casting a vote is a bolder move than merely suspecting someone, so why you having a suspicion first somehow makes up for you waiting for approval to vote is beyond me.

Really, how is that supposed to work out? "Whatever, who cares if I didn't vote somebody I said I suspected, I said I suspected him before everyone else did." I think you know how hollow saying you suspect someone without voting them looks.

What made you decide not to?

Since (I'd like to believe) I have such a good read on his meta, I'd be pressuring him over something I didn't suspect him for, and if I already read him as town pressure on bullshit issues like joking WIFOM I saw him do in some other game would probably be pointless and unnecessarily hostile.

On Shark, I was pretty sure I'd noticed a dead scumslip when he first said it. I didn't want to jump to conclusions, though, because sometimes noobs say stupid things and your brilliant plan fails miserably. I also figured it'd be an awesome opportunity to look for interactions with basically confirmed scum.

I believe this was when I lost any real doubt that he was scum, since, as I pointed out later, he basically admitted to answering a question from a scum perspective without any particular reason or bothering to mention he was doing so. There's really only one reason to do that.

This gave it an ironclad guarantee, however, since it's got pretty much every scumtell he could squeeze in there: OMGUSing, exaggerating things to discredit his attacker, nonsensical arguments (both on attack and defense), and a nice ultimatum to ride on or abandon his vote as he sees fit.

Hrm. Okay. Looking through the game this isn't too bad of a case.

What makes you think this is him being scum more than him just being a noob? Noobs sometimes can't help but change their stories around a lot whenever pressured.

Jim's got nothing, and hasn't been especially keen on fixing that. What I find most interesting, however, is that he doesn't really find Shark scummy, despite noticing and calling him out on some of his scumtells. Usually when I'm scum with a noob partner, I tend to underestimate their scumminess for whatever reason. Jim's a lot more brutal than I am, but it still looks a lot like that sort of situation, especially since, as I've just said, Jim's usually a lot more brutal than this.

This I don't understand. I dispute that I'm not keen on fixing the problem; I've asked plenty of questions to people. Maybe it bugs you that I'm not being as much of a raging douche as usual, but I'm not standing back in the sidelines.

I would think you'd be pleased to have control over that. It's no different from LYLO, right?

First time, possibility of screwing up, etc. etc.

I won't hesitate to make a decision, but I'm going to get as many answers as I need to before that point. Before I looked at yours and Shark's case closer, I was leaning towards it being you, but now it's the other way.

I felt that I'd gotten solid enough reads on everyone else, or at least as good as I was probably going to based on Shark interactions. Your Sharkvote post, Jim's scumtell answer, and Native's hypothetical explanation were all very important to that.

How important to your case on Shark are all three of those things?

[NativeForeigner]

Exremely busy weekend ahead of me. I won't be posting until probably Monday afternoon.

[Shark]

"when a player buddies, they cozy up to a player (usually powerful town) by flattery, agreeing with him, and other friendly moves"

Yeah, I said one compliment because you're an experienced player. If I wanted to be friends with everyone who I think is an experienced player I would be jumping all over you, native, and irony. I haven't been agreeing or doing other friendly moves, to my knowledge.

"This gave it an ironclad guarantee, however, since it's got pretty much every scumtell he could squeeze in there: OMGUSing, exaggerating things to discredit his attacker, nonsensical arguments (both on attack and defense), and a nice ultimatum to ride on or abandon his vote as he sees fit."

I'm not OMGUSing, I'm going after you because you've been hesitant to do anything without approval, not because of your suspicion. Your hesitance makes it seem that you're scared about your image. I'm not the only person who has been asking you about your hesitance, Jim also made a post with nothing but a question on why you were "dancing around a vote." You say that you weren't sure until then, but I know I've been your top scumpick for a good chunk of this game.  You're the one OMGUSing, you said that you had "lost any real doubt that he was scum" until I made the post where I voted you. If you're going to tell me I exaggerated and posted nonsensical arguments, post some evidence. I'm not scared to move this game forward, and you vote me for doing so.

[IronyOwl]

Really, how is that supposed to work out? "Whatever, who cares if I didn't vote somebody I said I suspected, I said I suspected him before everyone else did." I think you know how hollow saying you suspect someone without voting them looks.

If you can find a place where I tried to leave myself an escape route, please point it out. Otherwise, I don't see why declaring someone scum, then declaring that I want to be certain and not end the day too fast is scummy or hollow, especially since I was clear enough on my intentions to get flak from multiple people for not adding the vote on there.

What makes you think this is him being scum more than him just being a noob? Noobs sometimes can't help but change their stories around a lot whenever pressured.

Well for one thing, even if he is a noob, I can't fathom why he'd mentally switch himself to the more interesting team to give an answer, then fail to mention that he was doing so.

Secondly, his first explanation for that was an anecdote about meta-tells ruining a different game. If he somehow had done the aforementioned, I'd assume his first response would be either explaining as much, or digging himself deeper in a panicky and similarly bizarre fashion. This was more of a calculated excuse, and he didn't bother mentioning it again, instead switching to different stories.


Basically, he's been lying to cover his tracks after acting bizarrely. If he's somehow not scum, I don't know how I'd ever be able to tell that.

Jim's got nothing, and hasn't been especially keen on fixing that. What I find most interesting, however, is that he doesn't really find Shark scummy, despite noticing and calling him out on some of his scumtells. Usually when I'm scum with a noob partner, I tend to underestimate their scumminess for whatever reason. Jim's a lot more brutal than I am, but it still looks a lot like that sort of situation, especially since, as I've just said, Jim's usually a lot more brutal than this.

This I don't understand. I dispute that I'm not keen on fixing the problem; I've asked plenty of questions to people. Maybe it bugs you that I'm not being as much of a raging douche as usual, but I'm not standing back in the sidelines.

You've seemed rather slow and low-key to me. Usually one, sometimes two people at a time, usually fairly gentle questions, and in several cases admitting you don't really have anything, are grasping at straws, etc.

I felt that I'd gotten solid enough reads on everyone else, or at least as good as I was probably going to based on Shark interactions. Your Sharkvote post, Jim's scumtell answer, and Native's hypothetical explanation were all very important to that.

How important to your case on Shark are all three of those things?

Not at all. All three were largely dependent on Shark being alive and unflipped, however.

I'm not OMGUSing, I'm going after you because you've been hesitant to do anything without approval, not because of your suspicion. Your hesitance makes it seem that you're scared about your image. I'm not the only person who has been asking you about your hesitance, Jim also made a post with nothing but a question on why you were "dancing around a vote."

I did forget parroting, didn't I?

You say that you weren't sure until then, but I know I've been your top scumpick for a good chunk of this game.

"Top scumpick" and "ready to have lynched" are two separate things. I'm pretty sure I've explained multiple times that I wasn't ready for the day to end even after I was ready to lynch you, and I know I've explained multiple times that I wanted to be damned sure before placing my vote.

You're the one OMGUSing, you said that you had "lost any real doubt that he was scum" until I made the post where I voted you.

No, the one you voted me in was the ironclad guarantee. Losing any serious doubts was the one before that, where you changed your story again, to something that didn't make any sense, again.

If you're going to tell me I exaggerated and posted nonsensical arguments, post some evidence. I'm not scared to move this game forward, and you vote me for doing so.

You claimed I was "scared" and "paralyzed" because I hadn't voted you yet, but without any reasons why my explanation for that was false.

You claimed that nobody would look at the first vote on a target, while implying that I didn't want to vote you first to avoid attention. I pointed this out earlier, but you ignored it.

You claimed that you misspoke because you're new at mafia. That doesn't explain anything, when the "misspeak" involves unspoken hypotheticals and changing your story.

[Urist_McArathos]

I honestly expected Irony to come after me for voting Shark, so this turn of events is entirely unprecedented.

Why'd you think that? Was there some part of your case you didn't think I'd find satisfactory?

No, I just thought I was scummier than Shark in your eyes, and expected you to view my post with a highly critical eye.

Yes, actually.  Unlike Shark, I took your statements about me quite seriously; accusing me of parroting, pressing me for better answers on some seemingly unimportant questions, and in general I just figured you had your eye on me, but were probing Shark more to get a better read on him (since it's hard to tell how much of his behavior is newb and how much is genuinely scummy).

I actually don't think I called you out on parroting until after you'd said that.

In any case, are you saying that if I'd declared you scum instead of Shark, you'd have been satisfied enough with the scumhunting I'd done on you to assume I was being reasonable?

That would have depended on the case you made for voting me.

If that wasn't the case (since I apparently was/am #2-3 depending on which post I cite now), what convinced you to vote him?  I didn't do much beyond expand on my original arguments (which you apparently found so unoriginal you said I was parroting even after I made them).

I felt that I'd gotten solid enough reads on everyone else, or at least as good as I was probably going to based on Shark interactions. Your Sharkvote post, Jim's scumtell answer, and Native's hypothetical explanation were all very important to that.

Makes sense.

[Jim Groovester]

After a busy day of being Batman, I'm back.

Anyways, before I make a decision I want to wait for this:

Exremely busy weekend ahead of me. I won't be posting until probably Monday afternoon.

It seems like NativeForeigner and Shark aren't making their cases on IronyOwl, but I'd rather wait to see if that's because of availability instead of any other reason.

Unless both of them suddenly become very convincing it's probably going to be Shark. The closer and closer I look at IronyOwl's case (shame on me for not doing that sooner) the more I can see where he's coming from about it. In particular, this quote is where I see Shark more as being scum than being a noob.

I was speaking about games in general, like I said earlier. I guess it wasn't how I should of answered, and it's apparently something you guys didn't want to hear. I was trying to be more interesting, the game was moving pretty slowly.

Playing it off his answers earlier in the game like he meant to do it that way is crap.