Jim:Question for everybody: Is it generally good practice to think about or care who the target is going to vengekill if it turns out to be a mislynch?
Pretty much what Native said. It's one of those things that's important enough to warrant consideration in theory, but that almost always gets eclipsed by concerns like "If you're that worried about it why are you killing them" and "If they're this scummy and town we're probably screwed anyway."
Native:Scratch this, after looking back, I realized that you were actually asking questions. However, it still seems to me like you were waiting for approval or backing from someone before you cast your vote. You stated a few times that you were almost sure Shark was scum, but for whatever reason you didn't actually vote him until AFTER Urist did. That doesn't sit well with me.
As I've said, I was both overly cautious and wanted more non-Shark reads before the day end.
It also seemed like you were trying to lead people into agreeing that Shark was definitely (but apparently not definitely enough to vote) scum. Especially here where you ask Jim what the scummiest thing Shark has done. Not what his read on Shark was, what the scummiest thing he's done was. That tends to force the player to see someone only in a negative light and miss the whole.
I'd already inferred his overall read from the fact that he wasn't destroying Shark for his scumminess; most of his attacks were fairly neutral, so it didn't seem like he considered him overt scum. I wanted something more specific on how he was viewing Shark, so I asked about what Jim felt his worst offense was. I don't think asking someone for what they consider someone's worst scumtell to be overly manipulative, and even if it was I don't think Jim's particularly mindrapeable.
To have something to fall back on when you jump on the second vote.
Then... what was the point of waiting for a first vote in the first place? If I'd already made up my mind that I was going to prep myself for voting Shark and only Shark, what's the big delay for?
If you weren't waiting for approval and your suspicions were so concrete, why weren't you the first one to vote him? You can still look for interactions between players and your "confirmed scum". A vote won't have any effect that your announcement of your suspicion didn't other than showing that you're going to act on your suspicions. Additionally, the game won't end immediately after the first vote is cast (just look where we are now), so I don't think your worries of ending the day too quickly had any real ground.
I knew the day wouldn't end
immediately upon voting him, but I wasn't sure when it would end, and once I vote him it's a bit late to try to say I'm not ready yet. Plus, if the day's only being dragged out because I've specifically requested it, I'm not going to get very good Shark interaction data.
Shark:I never changed my story, both reasons are correct. I didn't want to post both reasons at once because I feared you guys would think I overreacted to the question. Either way, you guys freaked out.
So you're openly admitting to lying to us to appear more townlike, but are still surprised and offended that we think you're scum. Hmmm.
Also, "I did forget parroting, didn't I?" isn't an answer. That's you dismissing me and looking superior so jim won't pay attention to what I said, and will look at the other things you've said. You're scared to reply or explain yourself under pressure.
You're using Native's arguments. If you cared about the answers, you could see where I've responded to them to Native.
"You claimed that nobody would look at the first vote on a target, while implying that I didn't want to vote you first to avoid attention. I pointed this out earlier, but you ignored it." You misread what I said. I was saying that you wouldn't even make the first vote, which, in my opinion, is safer than say, the 2nd or 3rd vote.
What you said and what you meant are only as close as you made them.
Still, if I was too cowardly to be the first vote, why was I willing to be the
more dangerous second vote?
Here's my quote: "Do you really not want attention on you? If I got hammered, no one would look at the first voter."
I read that as: You don't want attention on you so badly you won't vote. I then point out that it's pointless to be scared to make the first vote.
I only see that kind of pointless hesitation as scummy.
I've already explained why I didn't want to vote you then. It had nothing to do with being the first vote and everything to do with wanting to use you to find your partner.
"No, the one you voted me in was the ironclad guarantee." What the hell are you going on about? I never implied otherwise, I clicked your link to confirm that the post where I voted you was the ironclad guarentee.
Reread this quote from me: "You're the one OMGUSing, you said that you had "lost any real doubt that he was scum" until I made the post where I voted you."
That says that you has lost doubt in me, which you did do before I voted you, until I made the post where I voted you and your opinion flipped.
Now you're just not reading. It's a petty distinction anyway, but if you're going to attack me you should probably pay attention to what I'm saying.
I referenced two posts. The first, where you didn't vote me, was the one I said caused me to lose any real doubt that you were scum. The second, where you did vote me, was what gave me the ironclad guarantee.
More relevantly, I was almost certain you were scum before you voted me, and it wasn't just the vote that clinched it.
You're going to say i'm parroting, but seriously, you're the one who changed your story to something nonsensical(and you didn't give evidence again), because you're misreading my posts to use as fodder against me, which is a bullshit tactic.
You'll have to actually explain this. Going on long but vague tirades against someone doesn't really do anything.
Anything you don't want to see you just dismissed, such as when I called you out for OMGUSing. Many of these reasons you're using against are exactly what YOU'RE doing, it feels like you set this up just so you can whine about parroting and not have real reasons, because i'm still looking for good reasons in your recent post.
I dismissed your claim of OMGUSing because there was no case to it. What makes you say I was OMGUSing and not bandwagoning, or jumping to avoid Jim's notice, or genuinely found your case on me scummy, or decided I was ready for you to die, or any of a bunch of other options? You don't have anything, so it's a worthless claim. Maybe I voted you because I like cinnamon; without anything to back it up, we'd never know.
So basically all your recent arguments against me recently are just badly thought out responses that don't mean a thing, just because Jim is leaning toward me. Relaxing because you're off the hook? No matter who gets vote, you're going to die, take a moment and think about why. You've dug yourself into a hole because you were finally forced into action.
If I was forced into action, it sure as hell wasn't by you, and if by some miracle you do have a vengekill, we're probably fucked anyway.