Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Fenrir]

I know people at my school who practically live stoned 24/7 without it causing them to flunk out of anything.

How very good for them.

That's not even touching the huge number of them that smoke tobacco or drink alcohol, which are only prohibited to them because of age limitations.

Alcohol and tobacco should be outlawed, as I expect it would save very many lives. Unfortunately, they tried that once—it didn’t work.

The horrible nightmare of "Drugs" (Brought to you by the people who invented the capital-T "Terrorists"), as much as the state-sponsored PSAs would like you not to believe, have widely varying effects that may or may not cripple your social life.

So perhaps it is best that children been tested that we might discover those who are taking such drugs as may cripple their social lives.

And frankly, even if their PSAs were true, it still wouldn't be a justification. Recreational drug use is a personal decision, with benefits and consequences tacked on to whomever decides to engage in it. That's on their head, not the state's. The state needs to learn some personal boundaries and back the fuck off.

Perhaps we should permit children to finish their physical and psychological development before we let them willingly choose to do themselves injury.

Oh, and by the way, the vast majority of students use substances illegally. I hope you can sleep at night knowing that these policies are pointed at somewhere between 40-95% of the students in the country, and that if they get caught by it they'll likely be condemned to poverty for the rest of their lives.

That last assertion about being condemned to poverty shall require something to support it if you would deprive me of sleep, and even then I think shall slumber in peace.

[Bauglir]

Oh, right, Janet's post reminded me. Addendum: Beginning drug use isn't just a personal decision, there are times where it's the right personal decision because the alternative is crippling agony for months. It's so obvious that it's almost not even a choice. It's continuing past the time when you no longer need them to function that's wrong, but as I said before, continuing is usually not a choice for somebody who has become addicted.

[Montague]

From the perspective of the government it makes no sense for them to provide free schooling on one hand and passively allow illegal activities they try so hard to combat on the other. It arguably might not be moral for them to make drug use illegal in the first place but it doesn't make sense for them to be inconstant in enforcing their laws.

I'm not sure pissing hot on a drug test will condemn anybody to poverty, juvenile criminal records are sealed at 18 and pissing hot isn't even an actual crime.

Anyways, there are alternatives to public school, including dropping out and taking the GED at 16 and using all the illegal drugs you like until your 18 and decide to get a job or something. There is only as much government control as you let there be, if your goals are incompatible with the government's you'll just have to adapt and overcome.

[Gunner-Chan]

Oh, right, Janet's post reminded me. Addendum: Beginning drug use isn't just a personal decision, there are times where it's the right personal decision because the alternative is crippling agony for months. It's so obvious that it's almost not even a choice. It's continuing past the time when you no longer need them to function that's wrong, but as I said before, continuing is usually not a choice for somebody who has become addicted.

Exactly. I fell into that god damn hole and didn't have a way out. I didn't even intentionally start it. I got continually drugged. Wasn't my choice and there wasn't any help available for me so I just ended up flailing around in school until I dropped out. I wasn't a high school graduate till I was 20 because of it.

Yeah, sure. Our kids should be able to do that right?

[quinnr]

Oh, right, Janet's post reminded me. Addendum: Beginning drug use isn't just a personal decision, there are times where it's the right personal decision because the alternative is crippling agony for months. It's so obvious that it's almost not even a choice. It's continuing past the time when you no longer need them to function that's wrong, but as I said before, continuing is usually not a choice for somebody who has become addicted.

Exactly. I fell into that god damn hole and didn't have a way out. I didn't even intentionally start it. I got continually drugged. Wasn't my choice and there wasn't any help available for me so I just ended up flailing around in school until I dropped out. I wasn't a high school graduate till I was 20 because of it.

Yeah, sure. Our kids should be able to do that right?

Because randomly cherrypicking kids is going to do a great job at finding people who use drugs.

If they actually cared, they'd walk ten steps (literally) outside the school and then look down the street and call the police and tell them that there are 10+ kids doing drugs/smoking right there outside the school grounds, every single day.

[Fenrir]

Because randomly cherrypicking kids is going to do a great job at finding people who use drugs.

It is required for activites and only with parental consent. How is that random cherrypicking?

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Metalslime keeps acting as anti-establishment as he can for no reason.

If advocating for minors to have legal rights isn't a reason, yeah, I'm just a total contrarian aren't I?

That's not even touching the huge number of them that smoke tobacco or drink alcohol, which are only prohibited to them because of age limitations.

Alcohol and tobacco should be outlawed, as I expect it would save very many lives. Unfortunately, they tried that once—it didn’t work.

If alchohol and tobacco were outlawed you'd be killing way more people than you'd "save" from their personal choices. New black markets and the expanded influence of organized crime are not good for keeping people alive.

So perhaps it is best that children been tested that we might discover those who are taking such drugs as may cripple their social lives.

They made their choice, they can live with the consequences until they chose to apply for rehab of their own free will.

Perhaps we should permit children to finish their physical and psychological development before we let them willingly choose to do themselves injury.

Perhaps you should realize that this isn't going to happen. Ever. Even if you put GPS-tracking slave collars on all the minors. They use these substances because they want to, just like they have sex because they want to. The War on Drugs and Abstinence Only are both total failures of government policy for the same reason: They aren't realistic in the slightest, and they provide no recourse for those it targets. If high school students want drugs, then they'll basically have it thrown right at them in spite of the already repressive policies we have in place. I'll give you a hint: The secret to fixing these problems is not more repressive policies.

That last assertion about being condemned to poverty shall require something to support it if you would deprive me of sleep, and even then I think shall slumber in peace.

Most employers will not hire anyone who has been to prison because of the stigma behind it, and those who do don't pay well. US Prisons have a 60% return rate.
 
If we quit trying to fight the existence of drugs and instead use those billions on extensive rehabilitation programs and erasing the stigma of having been a drug user or arrested, then things will get better. But I guess successful government policies are just crazy talk in this country.

[ed boy]

Deal with it. Life ain't fair. Act like a semi-responsible adult, taking a bloody piss test isn't a big deal by any stretch of the mind.

Deal with it. Life ain't fair. Act like a semi-responsible adult, reporting traitors to the Great Leader isn't a big deal by any stretch of the mind.

Don't strawman. Strife was telling the OP to man up about it. Manning up entails doing something you don't want to, but it does not entail pretending you like it.

I know people at my school who practically live stoned 24/7 without it causing them to flunk out of anything. That's not even touching the huge number of them that smoke tobacco or drink alcohol, which are only prohibited to them because of age limitations.

The horrible nightmare of "Drugs" (Brought to you by the people who invented the capital-T "Terrorists"), as much as the state-sponsored PSAs would like you not to believe, have widely varying effects that may or may not cripple your social life.

And frankly, even if their PSAs were true, it still wouldn't be a justification. Recreational drug use is a personal decision, with benefits and consequences tacked on to whomever decides to engage in it. That's on their head, not the state's. The state needs to learn some personal boundaries and back the fuck off.

Oh, and by the way, the vast majority of students use substances illegally. I hope you can sleep at night knowing that these policies are pointed at somewhere between 40-95% of the students in the country, and that if they get caught by it they'll likely be condemned to poverty for the rest of their lives.

This is not about whether or not drugs should be illegal. Like it or not, they are. This is about the schools testing for drugs.

Also, I haven't gotten an answer for this:

What exactly is the principle of the thing? I can't quite tell whether it is the fact that someone can have the authority to pressure you to have a drug test, or whether it is the fact that the school has the authority.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Deal with it. Life ain't fair. Act like a semi-responsible adult, taking a bloody piss test isn't a big deal by any stretch of the mind.

Deal with it. Life ain't fair. Act like a semi-responsible adult, reporting traitors to the Great Leader isn't a big deal by any stretch of the mind.

Don't strawman. Strife was telling the OP to man up about it. Manning up entails doing something you don't want to, but it does not entail pretending you like it.

Strife was telling the OP to shut up and accept injustice because....why, exactly? I was simply pointing out how irrational that is.

[quinnr]

Also, I haven't gotten an answer for this:

What exactly is the principle of the thing? I can't quite tell whether it is the fact that someone can have the authority to pressure you to have a drug test, or whether it is the fact that the school has the authority.

I said earlier, it's an invasion of privacy and a waste of resources.

At the above comments, sure, 'life isn't fair' a whole lot of the time. But the U.S. sure tries its hardest to make it fair, and I don't think that being a minor should just drop that.

[Sowelu]

Metalslime keeps acting as anti-establishment as he can for no reason.

If advocating for minors to have legal rights isn't a reason, yeah, I'm just a total contrarian aren't I?

On what planet is chess club a legal right?  Jesus.

Also, thanks for popping in to give a parental opinion on the subject, Janet.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Metalslime keeps acting as anti-establishment as he can for no reason.

If advocating for minors to have legal rights isn't a reason, yeah, I'm just a total contrarian aren't I?

On what planet is chess club a legal right?  Jesus.

It's not about the clubs. It's about being able to go about your life without being harassed for being too young.

[Frumple]

I... wait. How is parental oversight injust, again? That's what's going on, right? School has the parent sign a form saying their kid has to take a drug test to do extracurricular activities, correct? This scenario would have to be seriously stretched to become an issue of justice. Further, it's not an issue of privacy if there's a consent form involved. If they were coming to your house and forcing you to do it without any warning, that'd be an issue of privacy. Not what's being described.

The standard response is, if you don't want parental oversight, get out of the house. Sure, most kids under age are basically fucked if they do that, but that's their choice, is it not?

[kaijyuu]

I hate it when people say stuff along the lines "it's not required, and thus ok, because you have <insert completely unreasonable alternative here>".


Despite being a huge children's rights advocate, I'm really not seeing too big a problem here. Ok, random drug tests for no reason are dumb. However, there could be plenty of valid reasons for requiring them: maybe the school has a drug problem going on. Maybe the sports teams have a history of steroid abuse. Maybe the chess team last year was hooked on pot.*

There are many more valid things to be rallying against. Where I live, for example, schools do not allow kids to wear hats. Why? Potential gang signs. Nevermind that we've never really had a problem with gangs, or that the rule is completely and utterly ineffectual even if we did (any piece of clothing, mannerism, or saying can be turned into a "gang sign"). Can't wear hats, pretty much just 'cause.


*as a side note, I'm pro-legalization of pretty much every drug in existence. So no, I'm not saying this from a "omg protect the children from evil" perspective. Though I disagree with the law existing, drug tests are a completely valid and reasonable way to enforce it.

[quinnr]

I... wait. How is parental oversight injust, again? That's what's going on, right? School has the parent sign a form saying their kid has to take a drug test to do extracurricular activities, correct? This scenario would have to be seriously stretched to become an issue of justice. Further, it's not an issue of privacy if there's a consent form involved. If they were coming to your house and forcing you to do it without any warning, that'd be an issue of privacy. Not what's being described.

The standard response is, if you don't want parental oversight, get out of the house. Sure, most kids under age are basically fucked if they do that, but that's their choice, is it not?

As said in the first post, parents can also sign a paper voluntarily to for you to be forced to take random drug tests and the school can then inflict whatever punishment they see fit. It's not just when joining clubs, although it is required to join the clubs, as well.

And even if you just leave, your parents still have legal rights and you are still a minor and all that, to be emancipated you have to show yourself financially secure and have a strong reasoning to be emancipated.