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[Neonivek]

Currently one of the largest disabilities in the game is to have no skills whatsoever. It is why we often see skill-less creatures completely overwhelmed by our skilled individuals. Even Toady has noticed this with certain individuals.

My proposal is that raw attributes should allow a to at least have a phantom skill level as far as the game is concerned. That way large imposing creatures such as dragons or animals such as tigers will no longer have such trouble with the mediocre skilled without requiring individual skill levels to be included for every unintelligent creature.

How the game should reflect this for dwarves and adventurers is until your skill reaches a certain thresh-hold its effect on combat should be very minimal, or even useless at low levels, to reflect that your skills have not reached a level where it is a true improvement to your fighting prowess as your natural talents are more formidable then that level of skill can possibly improve on.

As well even with puny creatures their low attributes will usually mean they will be next to useless even with skill kicking in immediately. While almighty creatures are so powerful that nothing could make them strike harder or more true.

I should also include that some feats, manoeuvres, and even some weapons should outright require skill. While someone with incredible strength and speed could strike all the more easily, they would still be unable to replicate certain feats such as striking internal organs without knowledge and training of how to do so. This can be reflected in martial arts once it is added.

So what do you think about this idea?

[Orangebottle]

My proposal is that raw attributes should allow a to at least have a phantom skill level as far as the game is concerned. That way large imposing creatures such as dragons or animals such as tigers will no longer have such trouble with the mediocre skilled without requiring individual skill levels to be included for every unintelligent creature.

Except that's sort of realistic. In the same way humans don't have a problem smashing on ants, Dragons and their megabeast kin shouldn't have trouble beating the shit out of things that can't defend themselves.

How the game should reflect this for dwarves and adventurers is until your skill reaches a certain thresh-hold its effect on combat should be very minimal, or even useless at low levels, to reflect that your skills have not reached a level where it is a true improvement to your fighting prowess as your natural talents are more formidable then that level of skill can possibly improve on.

So, you have natural combat skill that, in reality, does nothing. At all. Great.

I should also include that some feats, manoeuvres, and even some weapons should outright require skill. While someone with incredible strength and speed could strike all the more easily, they would still be unable to replicate certain feats such as striking internal organs without knowledge and training of how to do so. This can be reflected in martial arts once it is added.

So it's impossible to know where the internal organs of my opponent are, even though it's pretty obvious where the Heart, Stomach, and Brain are. So, I can't damage them even though I know the location? Not even accidentally? :|

[Neonivek]

Except that's sort of realistic. In the same way humans don't have a problem smashing on ants, Dragons and their megabeast kin shouldn't have trouble beating the shit out of things that can't defend themselves

No that is exactly it. The way the game currently works a Dragon has a large disability to even strike human beings because they themselves do not have any combat skill (as it is something that only intelligent creatures can have).

So, you have natural combat skill that, in reality, does nothing. At all. Great

No, what I said is that until you surpass your hidden natural combat skill... gaining skill in combat should have a minimal effect.

So it's impossible to know where the internal organs of my opponent are, even though it's pretty obvious where the Heart, Stomach, and Brain are. So, I can't damage them even though I know the location? Not even accidentally?

Do you know how to strike someone's brain other then to hit them in the head really hard? Also who said not even accidently?

[Orangebottle]

No that is exactly it. The way the game currently works a Dragon has a large disability to even strike human beings because they themselves do not have any combat skill (as it is something that only intelligent creatures can have).
A dragon's combat choices are "Set this dude on fire" and "Trample this one guy". There's hardly any real skill involved.

No, what I said is that until you surpass your hidden natural combat skill... gaining skill in combat should have a minimal effect.

Do humans/dwarves/etc normally have natural combat skill? No. They have to learn it.

Do you know how to strike someone's brain other then to hit them in the head really hard? Also who said not even accidently?

There's another way to strike someone's brain? And, you did. You said they'd require training to be able to strike internal organs; the brain is an internal organ.

[Murphy]

No that is exactly it. The way the game currently works a Dragon has a large disability to even strike human beings because they themselves do not have any combat skill (as it is something that only intelligent creatures can have).

They have combat skills. Let's look at the raws:

Code: [Select]

[CREATURE:DRAGON]
[DESCRIPTION:A gigantic reptilian creature.  It is magical and can breath fire.  These monsters can live for thousands of years.]
        ...
[NATURAL_SKILL:BITE:6]
[NATURAL_SKILL:GRASP_STRIKE:6]
[NATURAL_SKILL:RANGED_COMBAT:6]
[NATURAL_SKILL:MELEE_COMBAT:6]
[NATURAL_SKILL:DODGING:6]
[NATURAL_SKILL:SITUATIONAL_AWARENESS:6]


[Neonivek]

"There's another way to strike someone's brain? And, you did. You said they'd require training to be able to strike internal organs; the brain is an internal organ"

Yes there is.

They have combat skills.

And if they didn't? or what if it was an entirely new creature?

The suggestion is to allow creatures with high strength and agility to actually make strong and agile attacks rather then slow and clumbsy even if they lacked the pre-programmed skills by allowing attributes to simulate combat skills up to a certain level and to slow the rate of combat skill's effect on combat effectiveness until it surpasses the natural threshhold.

Do humans/dwarves/etc normally have natural combat skill? No. They have to learn it

Ignoring that the answer is "yes" in real life, that isn't what the suggestion is.

A dragon's combat choices are "Set this dude on fire" and "Trample this one guy". There's hardly any real skill involved

So combat spitting and combat stomping and thus how to stomp and how to set people on fire. There we go two skills.

[IT 000]

I fundamentally agree, creatures need to be more deadly, a novice swordsman shouldn't be able to best a lion wearing nothing but his two pig tail socks. However I don't believe you are handling it the right way, currently weapons are very limited. Your an axe dwarf, what are your choices for weapons? An axe, your a swordsdwarf, what are your choices for swords? A short sword. There just isn't enough variety to implement a skill level to use the weapons.

Furthermore, while I have never wielded a sword, I'm sure I could still do some major damage by slashing the slashy end around.

I think the creatures themselves need to be stronger, megabeasts need to get some semi-metal skin/scales, dragon fire needs to catch things on fire again, they should start showing up with artifact weapons. Regular day-to-day critters need to be more aggressive, hopefully catching a civie off-guard, and claws need to be made more dangerous in general, currently they only bruise the skin if the dwarf is wearing clothes. It ain't kevlar.

Predators also need natural skills, which would greatly help this.

[Neonivek]

Some of the issues with natural creatures is that in the light of medieval armor they just arn't all that special. The game may need more monsters to pepper the landscape, afterall how many outside of semi-megabeasts and megabeasts and beastmen and powers does it have?

Though... Dodging a lion that attacked you would be pretty darn impressive but you can easily do it in the game.

---

Actually my inspiration for this was actually a series where basically a Powerful man with no formal skills started to beat up one of the main characters irregardless of that fact and was essentially defeated by masterful skill. (Essentially "Person on person" rather then creature on person). Essentially his raw attributes gave him essentially skills and even if he started taking martial arts he wouldn't gain a benefit from it until he surpassed a certain threshold since he was so talented already.

And my inspiration to even post this was the Zombies being useless. If Zombies' strength actually made them dangerous (such as by fast flailing limbs) then it could go a long way to making them a reasonable threat without magicing in some combat skill.

[Orangebottle]

Ignoring that the answer is "yes" in real life, that isn't what the suggestion is.

The answer is definitely "no". People have no skill, they just flail about like amateurs.

So combat spitting and combat stomping and thus how to stomp and how to set people on fire. There we go two skills.

Um. No?
Imagine for a second that you're a massive, extremely powerful magical lizard that can breath fire. You literally look at something, exhale, and it turns to ashes within seconds. Anything you step on is flattened almost instantly. How much skill would you have? None. Why would you need skill when you can just run up, step on the thing or set it on fire, and run away?

I fundamentally agree, creatures need to be more deadly, a novice swordsman shouldn't be able to best a lion wearing nothing but his two pig tail socks. However I don't believe you are handling it the right way, currently weapons are very limited. Your an axe dwarf, what are your choices for weapons? An axe, your a swordsdwarf, what are your choices for swords? A short sword. There just isn't enough variety to implement a skill level to use the weapons.

Furthermore, while I have never wielded a sword, I'm sure I could still do some major damage by slashing the slashy end around.

I think the creatures themselves need to be stronger, megabeasts need to get some semi-metal skin/scales, dragon fire needs to catch things on fire again, they should start showing up with artifact weapons. Regular day-to-day critters need to be more aggressive, hopefully catching a civie off-guard, and claws need to be made more dangerous in general, currently they only bruise the skin if the dwarf is wearing clothes. It ain't kevlar.

Predators also need natural skills, which would greatly help this.

A short dude with a steel axe shouldn't be able to hack through aforementioned dragon's leg like it's made out of wood, then have trouble cutting off the leg of a bronze colossus with the same axe. Creatures need to be rebalanced.

[Murphy]

Actually my inspiration for this was actually a series where basically a Powerful man with no formal skills started to beat up one of the main characters irregardless of that fact and was essentially defeated by masterful skill. (Essentially "Person on person" rather then creature on person). Essentially his raw attributes gave him essentially skills and even if he started taking martial arts he wouldn't gain a benefit from it until he surpassed a certain threshold since he was so talented already.

This is unrealistic. If a person that is naturally talented starts taking martial arts, he or she actually gains a benefit earlier than normal people. Raw attributes do not and should not give anyone "innate skills".

Predatory animals aren't deadly because they are strong or dexterous. It is because they have instincts, which are largely innate skills. While they require some practice to "activate" - that's why wolf pups and lion cubs (and, I imagine, dragon hatchlings) play with each other before they can really hunt - they are very limited in development over a certain degree of finesse. This is simulated well enough by giving the animals the NATURAL_SKILL tag.

[Neonivek]

I like that I got people strongly agreeing with me and not realising it. Anyhow...

The answer is definitely "no". People have no skill, they just flail about like amateurs.

So there you go... They have skill

Imagine for a second that you're a massive, extremely powerful magical lizard that can breath fire. You literally look at something, exhale, and it turns to ashes within seconds. Anything you step on is flattened almost instantly. How much skill would you have? None. Why would you need skill when you can just run up, step on the thing or set it on fire, and run away?

Thus the Dragon is so large, fast, and strong that essentially it cannot be improved upon by skill as it can already do what it does to the best of its ability.

If a person that is naturally talented starts taking martial arts, he or she actually gains a benefit earlier than normal people

Your thinking of talent as in the ability to pick up martial arts fast. In this case it was talent as in was strong, was agile, and had a great reaction time. Something which most martial arts attempt to suppliment and then let shine.

The Strong person has the attributes to make the Martial art shine earlier. The weak person gains the benefit quicker (Like pushing boulders up a hill >_>)

Predatory animals aren't deadly because they are strong or dexterous. It is because they have instincts, which are largely innate skills

Everything has instincts. This is just a faster solution then giving everything skill levels. Especially since by what means does one thing have more skill then another?

[Murphy]

I'll try to explain. What is a skill?
A skill is not something that substitutes your attributes. It is your ability to use them properly, be it learned (martial arts) or innate (predatory instinct).

Thus, a strong or agile person will gain the benefits of martial arts earlier. A weak or clumsy person, on the other hand, will have to first devote time to improving their strength or agility. If you lack strength or agility, you cannot do the required moves, and if you cannot attempt them, you cannot master them.

Thus, yes, everyone should have some sort of skill level, innate or learned - attributes alone won't cut it for all but the simplest tasks. We do not need a "faster" solution that skews to simplicity instead of realism - the same reason we do not want hitpoints.

[Vattic]

In reality: If you've some training with a sword or spear how difficult would it be to kill say a bear or similar large, dangerous animal?

Thus the Dragon is so large, fast, and strong that essentially it cannot be improved upon by skill as it can already do what it does to the best of its ability.

Maybe I'm giving dragons too much credit but I'd like the long lived ones to get wiser and more skilled. Some amount of learning should be possible.

[Neonivek]

We do not need a "faster" solution that skews to simplicity instead of realism - the same reason we do not want hitpoints

We do need attributes to be more meaningful to a certain extent.

I still remember that guy who won a weapons tournament simply because he was so strong he was able to beat everyone down with a large stick (it could be a myth... but frankly... What can you do against a guy who can beat your agility by just being 7 feet tall and REALLY strong?)

We COULD just make attributes more meaningful but that wouldn't be accurate either because then skill will be too powerful. We could make skill less meaningful but then that wouldn't be accurate either.

This isn't a "fast" solution in that I am trying to get something without caring about accuracy. I am going a solution that is faster and just as logical then supplimenting everything with skill. Especially for creatures that essentially shouldn't have any skill but who shouldn't need it to land blows.

Maybe I'm giving dragons too much credit but I'd like the long lived ones to get wiser and more skilled. Some amount of learning should be possible

Hopefully when Dragons become semi-randomised it will include whether or not they are intelligent or super intelligent or unintelligent. Not all dragons were intelligent, some were just basic animals.

Thus, a strong or agile person will gain the benefits of martial arts earlier. A weak or clumsy person, on the other hand, will have to first devote time to improving their strength or agility. If you lack strength or agility, you cannot do the required moves, and if you cannot attempt them, you cannot master them

Yes within the human ranges it wouldn't make too much of a difference. Once you get into Lions, Tigers, and Bears (ohh my) it would start to be skewed. When you get into Elephant Territory you get even further.

This suggestion is more for the non-PCs (or I guess modded super creatures) then for the PCs.

If you've some training with a sword or spear how difficult would it be to kill say a bear or similar large, dangerous animal?

To my knowledge the issue is that the animal could charge through you can kill you that way, even if you got a mortal blow.

[Murphy]

I dunno... it sounds artificial...
Of course, pre-setting creatures to have skills is artificial too.
Best would be having the tags like LARGE_PREDATOR or (SEMI-)MEGABEAST responsible for the creature being able to develop relevant skills or automatically developing them by reaching maturity (in their natural habitat at least).